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E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

nytimes.com

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Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#131

Post by superuser2 »

mikestew wrote: post #129
superuser2 wrote: post #96

I'm conflicted. What do people think about the ethics of buying (non-diesel) Volkswagen cars at this point? Obviously new cars pad VW's profits and reward bad behavior. But what about used ones? Seems like prices will be plummeting. And if you like the cars, seems like a great time to buy.

What do people think about the ethics of buying (non-diesel) Volkswagen cars at this point? Hey, if you want to buy a shit car, I don't think ethics really factor into it. All kidding aside, despite being in absolutely no danger of ever buying another VW, I would think of it like I think of buying from (to pick a recent popular whipping boy) Amazon: does giving money to the company vote for the world you want to live…

What comparably priced cars would you consider competitive with the Golf on interior quality? I want to love the Mazda 3, but until the 2014 model year it looks like garbage to me. I'd be much happier with a 3-series, but that's 3x as much money as a 2012-2014 Golf.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#132

Post by mikestew »

superuser2 wrote: post #131
mikestew wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do people think about the ethics of buying (non-diesel) Volkswagen cars at this point? Hey, if you want to buy a shit car, I don't think ethics really factor into it. All kidding aside, despite being in absolutely no danger of ever buying another VW, I would think of it like I think of buying from (to pick a recent popular whipping boy) Amazon: does giving money to the company vote for the world you want to live…

What comparably priced cars would you consider competitive with the Golf on interior quality? I want to love the Mazda 3, but until the 2014 model year it looks like garbage to me. I'd be much happier with a 3-series, but that's 3x as much money as a 2012-2014 Golf.

I don't mean to be a smartass, but does my post strike you as coming from a guy who pays much attention to VW these days? :-) VW had their chance several times, so they are now on my "don't even bother to look" list, right next to Fiat.

Besides, I spend my real money on motorcycles, so I'm truly not the guy to ask about compact cars regardless of brand. That, and the interior is low on my list of priorities when selecting a vehicle.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#133

Post by knieveltech »

mikestew wrote: post #130
knieveltech wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have one of the cars that will be impacted by the recall. Performance and fuel economy are both top notch. The cabin fit and finish are on par with vehicles three times the price. I'll certainly be holding on to mine. If the used vehicle price plummets I'd definitely consider getting a 2nd one for my wife.

Performance and fuel economy are both top notch. Considering it's doing the automotive equivalent of leaving a turd on the sidewalk everywhere it goes, I'd be really disappointed if its perf and mileage were merely average.

You're not the first to express this sentiment. It feels similar to having a random in a bar bitch at me about my carbon footprint when they hear I burn coal while blacksmithing on the weekend. I appreciate environmental awareness but are you sure you're maximizing your efforts? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/07/article-2683735-1F...

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#134

Post by knieveltech »

TheCondor wrote: post #115
knieveltech wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have one of the cars that will be impacted by the recall. Performance and fuel economy are both top notch. The cabin fit and finish are on par with vehicles three times the price. I'll certainly be holding on to mine. If the used vehicle price plummets I'd definitely consider getting a 2nd one for my wife.

Will you comply with the recall?

I would like to but it depends. I intend to wait a few weeks and see what impact other owners report before I decide. I would be willing to trade some performance or economy for better emissions but if the software/hardware changes turn these cars into either a Geo Metro or an F150 (shitty performance and economy, respectively) I'm going to opt out, then take the car down to the local tune shop and have a stage 1 kit put in.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#135

Post by 9935c101ab17a66 »

bri3d wrote: post #7
Johnny555 wrote: post #4

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

So either (a) the engineers did no QA, no MPG-testing/no environmental testing at all with cars that shared an engine, but differed in significant ways (car body, shocks, weight and AERODYNAMICS) and so they had no idea, which means (b) VW must have known that other divisions of the company had the same problem as the TDI because they were literally using the same engine without testing it. Either way, it's bad or it's very fucking bad.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#136

Post by gherkin0 »

bkero wrote: post #128
mikestew wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars for a car, how come they're using the cheapest possible components? Save a dollar on the part, and you make a million cars, how much does that add up to? Or conversely, why spend more than you have to if the quoted specs do the job? What the hell am I going to do with four cores if I follow the well-written description above? And I'd give your Raspberry Pi a lifespan of abou…

You'd do it because the million dollars in parts is peanuts compared to the combined salaries of the engineers who are paid to have the specialized knowledge to do this, and the time it to bring up a new application/car. I know that a million dollars is lowball, but this same principle can be applied to other components and scaled up (to a point). Potting electronics in epoxy isn't terrifically difficult, and would g…

Cars are life-critical systems. If GM half-assed it by putting...

> a potted Beaglebone Black (for its real-time subsystem)

...into an actual production car, what happens when the thing breaks down and kills someone? Death, recalls, lawsuits, and massive brand damage.

> This point is actually kind of moot because for a long time the ECUs of cars were located in the passenger cabin with wires fed in through a grommet in the firewall.

Even in the passenger compartment, cars aren't exactly friendly environments for electronics. They have large temperature swings (from a controlled climate to very hot in summer or very cold in winter). So putting it in the passenger compartment doesn't necessarily moot concerns over withstanding extreme environments.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#137

Post by addicted44 »

Johnny555 wrote: post #4

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

if those pesky engineers are looking for a job after getting fired from VW, I heard there is a young intern position available with the Donald Trump campaign.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#138

Post by superuser2 »

mikestew wrote: post #132
superuser2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What comparably priced cars would you consider competitive with the Golf on interior quality? I want to love the Mazda 3, but until the 2014 model year it looks like garbage to me. I'd be much happier with a 3-series, but that's 3x as much money as a 2012-2014 Golf.

I don't mean to be a smartass, but does my post strike you as coming from a guy who pays much attention to VW these days? :-) VW had their chance several times, so they are now on my "don't even bother to look" list, right next to Fiat. Besides, I spend my real money on motorcycles, so I'm truly not the guy to ask about compact cars regardless of brand. That, and the interior is low on my list of priorities when sele…

My point is VW fills a niche that's not otherwise well served. If you like the German sportscar aesthetic and can't afford a BMW, it's kind of your only choice.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#139

Post by bkero »

gherkin0 wrote: post #136
bkero wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd do it because the million dollars in parts is peanuts compared to the combined salaries of the engineers who are paid to have the specialized knowledge to do this, and the time it to bring up a new application/car. I know that a million dollars is lowball, but this same principle can be applied to other components and scaled up (to a point). Potting electronics in epoxy isn't terrifically difficult, and would g…

Cars are life-critical systems. If GM half-assed it by putting... > a potted Beaglebone Black (for its real-time subsystem) ...into an actual production car, what happens when the thing breaks down and kills someone? Death, recalls, lawsuits, and massive brand damage. > This point is actually kind of moot because for a long time the ECUs of cars were located in the passenger cabin with wires fed in through a grommet…

The first point was meant to illustrate that it's not good enough to say that it's okay to not innovate because there's no better hardware available. I'm not suggesting that GM would seriously put a potted development board inside a vehicle. TI can simply produce automotive-grade equivalents for them.

What I'm suggesting is that things like higher sampling rates of input sensors and more composability and reusability can be realized by a newer, more standardized and open approach to hardware.

I would also wager that the outcome of failure would be the same as with the traditional systems. GM shifts the blame onto the ECU development shop that it contracted out to make the hardware or software, or the QE shop that failed to pick up the failure.

Vehicle electronics are typically rated from -40C to 125C, although it's seen that they routinely fail even inside these margins. The BBB for example can have an operating temperature from -40C to 85C. There are also plenty of industrial boards that meet or exceed the requirements of automotive operating environments. Companies such as TI are (in part) releasing development boards (such as the BBB) to try to inspire innovation in these environments. The dev boards themselves aren't rated for it, but the platform can be.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#140

Post by esaym »

bsimpson wrote: post #99
monkbroc wrote: post #85

Background: I used to be an automotive software engineer. I speak for myself only here. Whenever the topic of automotive software comes up on HN there are comments alongs the lines of "global variables bad", but not much construtive feedback. I want to explain some of the tradeoffs that lead to the architecture used in automotive software to get a better discussion going with HN readers about that architecture. tl;dr…

I'm not an embedded developer, so I don't have much value to add re: architecture; however, this caught my eye: > The microprocessor has to run for 10+ years in a wide range of temperatures and be dirt cheap, so you end up with specs like 180 MHz, 4 MB of flash and 128 KB of RAM. If I'm paying tens of thousands of dollars for a car, how come they're using the cheapest possible components? If tinkerers can ship the Ra…

You'd be surprised at how much "good" software can accomplish. Just think of an 80mhz embedded cpu. You have 80,000,000 calculations per second right there in your hand.

In a side project I was involved in. We were using 60mhz chips to modulate data at 1khz. I kept worrying about running out of cpu cycles, I mean after all, I was doing a few thousand things per second. But in reality, I still had a ton of head room to go :)

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