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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#131

Post by Mz »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #128
Mz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You generally are being dismissive, not just "dismissing my anecdote". Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. You dismiss my presumed hurt feelings over being misgendered as unimportant and something you cannot be bothered to put any effort into avoiding. You dismiss my accomplishments in gaining status on a predominantly male forum. You dismiss my "anecdote". And then you think that women shoul…

> Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. Everyone is treated in a dismissive fashioned by everyone . Only evidence and careful reasoning can rebut this default policy. You have presented none. It galls me you interpret treatment that everyone receives as hostility directed toward the group to which you happen to belong. I am under no obligation to give additional weight to your argument merely b…

I wouldn't call myself a technologist. I do have a Certicate in GIS. But I intended to be an urban planner before life got in the way and I have failed, so far, to get a job in tech. However, I also know of a man high on the leader board who is a school teacher. Being a technologist seems to not be required to have status here. Being male does seem to be a requirement. There do not appear to be any women currently on the leaderboard. So I believe you to be wrong that it is no great accomplishment for a woman to gain status here.

You're smart enough to know better.

Thank you for saying that. But it does not change the fact that men here are routinely asked to show their work and women are routinely told they are simply full of shit. I have tried to show you what I know. You dismiss it and seem unopen to considering additional evidence.

There is a big difference between skepticism or desiring firmer evidence and disrespect. I don't expect you to give me special treatment. The standard on HN is supposed to be civil, respectful discourse. But my history suggests that standard applies to men and not women. It has improved, quite a lot, but there are still differences.

When I joined Hacker News, there was much more collegial respect here -- for the men, not the women. That has deteriorated some over the years. It is perhaps being repaired. My hope is that if it is fully restored, it will apply equally to all members.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#132

Post by gozo »

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

While a agree with the problems people mention in this subthread there are also, at least in some parts of the world, plenty of women in "life sciences" (biology/chemistry/medicine) and other fields like economics.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#133

Post by rayiner »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #130
rayiner wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am. I think work places should be neutral places where the focus is on work. I'm a professional--I don't need to bond with my teammates over unrelated bullshit in order to work effectively with them.

I think sharing culture can create an esprit de corps, improving morale and group cohesion, especially in times of crisis.

Why can't the shared culture be a mutual commitment to high-quality work?

Let me put it another way: do you want to spend all day hearing about my toddler? If not--well that's how I feel about everything you're interested in. So let's just all do our work and leave our personal lives at home.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#134

Post by [deleted] »

majormajor wrote: post #117
forgottenpass wrote: post #106

Am I the only one here that finds more issue with the open secret embedded throughout this article? The article is written from an assumption that we're powerless to overcome the desire to brand ourselves by the outward facing image of our chosen interests. I should be careful not to state I'm not taking the position covered by the well-worn pre-rebuttal in the article. I'm not scoffing at this phenomenon. It's real…

Well I'd say changing human behavior is harder than changing perceptions. And most of the article (outside of the behavioral bit about the sexism she experienced, which is unfortunately a harder problem) is therefore focused on perceptions, which seems very justifiable given this bit: "As Dr. Cheryan points out, stereotypes are only partly true, and women who actually take classes in computer science don’t hold the s…

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#135

Post by tptacek »

vacri wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

Lawyers have their own 'uniforms' - they certainly don't tend to wear the normal day-to-day clothing of the general public.

A telling remark. So far as I can see, lawyers dress pretty much identically to every other professional --- except computer professionals, who actually do have an idiosyncratic dress code.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#136

Post by tptacek »

gaius wrote: post #85
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

But would anyone write an article saying that potential law students were put off by walls of law books and big mahogany desks?

law books : practice of law != {star wars, jokey t-shirts} : software development.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#137

Post by rewqfdsa »

Mz wrote: post #131
rewqfdsa wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. Everyone is treated in a dismissive fashioned by everyone . Only evidence and careful reasoning can rebut this default policy. You have presented none. It galls me you interpret treatment that everyone receives as hostility directed toward the group to which you happen to belong. I am under no obligation to give additional weight to your argument merely b…

I wouldn't call myself a technologist. I do have a Certicate in GIS. But I intended to be an urban planner before life got in the way and I have failed, so far, to get a job in tech. However, I also know of a man high on the leader board who is a school teacher. Being a technologist seems to not be required to have status here. Being male does seem to be a requirement. There do not appear to be any women currently on…

If the vast majority of HN participants are male, the leaderboard composition is a function of demographics, not some kind of "man filter" you've had to overcome. If your username is so generic that people frequently misgender you, how can it also be the case that you're simultaneously held to a higher standard on account of being a woman?

(Well, you might imagine that commentators here are _deliberately_ misgendering you, which is a suggestion so preposterous that I can't entertain it. It might also conceivably be the case that you've gained so much karma _because_ you have an androgynous username, but see below.)

As a man, I find it extremely frustrating when advocates for women in technology look at a phenomenon where men and women are imbalanced and immediately jump to sexism as the explanation. I've had a long career in technology. Not once have I seen a woman discriminated against or her ideas held to a higher standard than the ideas of men. I've seen plenty of mentoring, encouragement, and outreach however. I've personally worked to mentor women in computer science. The idea that there is some systemic bias against women on Hacker News or in the workplace is inconsistent with my experience and with the professed views of my colleagues.

I think we need additional empathy here. Maybe it's the case that _everyone's_ ideas are dismissed too quickly. Numerous times in my career, I've proposed $FOO, been told $FOO is impossible, and only been believed after actually _implementing_ $FOO, often on my own time after tending to my official responsibilities. When some women get this treatment, they call it sexism. When I get it, I call it the reality of working in a world that combines empiricism and huge egos. I think a lot of women in technology are genuinely unaware that men get this treatment too. Maybe it's shitty for everyone and not just women.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#138

Post by tptacek »

makomk wrote: post #107
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a nerd who grew up in the early 1990s: persecuted nerds do not have the right to (in any way) cordon off computer science as a refuge for their culture. But a lot of male nerds think they do!

Do persecuted non-nerds have the right to (in any way) cordon off computer science as a refuge free from nerdiness? Because that's what articles like these seem to be suggesting we'd need to do, by saying that nerd social cues like Star Wars and geeky T-shirts are excluding women.

I think that's an overwrought reading of the article, for two reasons: first, the article isn't prescriptive about Star Wars, and second, it's reporting simple facts; whether you feel comfortable about it or not, nerd culture's coupling with software development does alienate potential entrants to the field.

But let's not bother deploying dueling readings from the article, and instead see how much you and I actually disagree:

I do not in fact think it's reasonable to suggest that individual software developers should avoid nerd signifiers to avoid alienating people. I feel safe presuming we agree about that.

Do you feel like it's reasonable for companies to avoid aggressive identification with nerd culture? To not ask candidates what their favorite Star Wars movie is, or to try to balance out outings and fringe benefits so they only appeal to sci-fi fandom?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#139

Post by tptacek »

forgottenpass wrote: post #106

Am I the only one here that finds more issue with the open secret embedded throughout this article? The article is written from an assumption that we're powerless to overcome the desire to brand ourselves by the outward facing image of our chosen interests. I should be careful not to state I'm not taking the position covered by the well-worn pre-rebuttal in the article. I'm not scoffing at this phenomenon. It's real…

Can you be more specific about how to make kids immune to this phenomenon? It's not clear to me which notion in the article you're responding to.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#140

Post by dllthomas »

twic wrote: post #109
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring. Why not Lego for everyone? Lego is great! It stimulates creativity and you can do whatever you want with it. If you want to play with cars you can make em out of Lego. If you want to roleplay, you can make buildings and use the Lego minifigures! Doesn't that give you the best of both worlds? Heck, even if you're not interested in building your own stuff from scratch, a lot of s…

On the other hand, sewing is pretty useful. I have had many pairs of trousers whose lives were greatly extended by my making repairs to them. Although at some point, i discovered that superglue was much easier than sewing.

I just darned some slacks and fixed a button yesterday. It's a good skill to have.
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