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GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

taler.net

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Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#131

Post by msandford »

dagss wrote: post #108
mindcrime wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even slightly divorced from the real world. If you don't "pay your taxes" they will eventually send men with guns to confiscate your property and/or arrest you. And if you try to protect yourself, said "men with guns" will fucking shoot you dead. That is reality. And it's absolutely horrifying.

But it is nothing compared to the reality without taxes, where ANYONE (who can afford more men with guns than you can) can come and shoot you dead right away and take your property, not even giving you a chance to pay taxes (or vote) first.

> But it is nothing compared to the reality without taxes

Technology has come a long way in the last 1000 or so years. I suspect that there are new solutions to the problem that you describe. But they don't get explored because the State has a monopoly on violence and is very resistant to change.

Most of the time that's a good thing as it means that things get screwed up only very slowly. But it also tends to prevent things from getting better, too. Only the most egregious problems get solved.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#132

Post by afshin »

msandford wrote: post #130
afshin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty confident that the penalty for this crime, which has a name: "tax evasion", is not "men with guns will fucking shoot you dead".

Way to take his point completely out of context. Tax evasion doesn't get you killed, but resisting arrest for tax evasion just might end up with you dead.

But that's exactly the point: "point guns at law enforcement and you'll likely get killed" isn't quite as outrageous as "not paying your taxes gets you killed". Conflating those two only clouds the argument.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#133

Post by msandford »

afshin wrote: post #132
msandford wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to take his point completely out of context. Tax evasion doesn't get you killed, but resisting arrest for tax evasion just might end up with you dead.

But that's exactly the point: "point guns at law enforcement and you'll likely get killed" isn't quite as outrageous as "not paying your taxes gets you killed". Conflating those two only clouds the argument.

What you're saying is "The veneer is so civilized! What are you, a savage?"

And what he's saying is "The thing underlying the veneer is pretty savage, which taints the idea that everything is so civilized"

That's a point you seem to completely miss.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#134

Post by Nursie »

dchest wrote: post #102
dublinben wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question remains, why would anyone choose to use a system like this? Wealthy individuals and companies (aka those with most of the money) have a vested interest in having their transactions not easily tracked by the government.

Probably the goal is that you're coerced to use it, as with every other government service.

You're not coerced into using many government services.

You may be taxed to pay for them, but you don't have to use them all.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#135

Post by Nursie »

Kenji wrote: post #105
fleitz wrote: post #34

Free software for an unfree currency.

Very well said. As long as our monetary system is not freed from the grasp of the government/central banks/banks in general, reasonable currencies will never be widespread... Sane money is money that cannot be printed in arbitrary amounts. The money monopoly is particularly harmful to economy & citizens.

Thankfully there are not vast numbers of people that buy into that string of assertions.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#136

Post by Nursie »

icebraining wrote: post #115
yongjik wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be an interesting thought experiment to build a country entirely using private roads, but I find it pretty confusing that one could rail against the government "taking money at gunpoint" and at the same time hold up private roads as an alternative example. How do you think private roads make money? Asking people nicely if they could donate money if they are so inclined? Yeah, maybe you could say "If you don'…

You know, back in the current universe, 3% of LA's streets are already private, yet they don't charge poor Joe to drive on them. Maybe we should look into how those are funded before making assumptions?

Private roads in the UK are residential, and usualy cul-de-sacs. They are paid for by the residents and poor Joe doesn't pay to drive on them because poor Joe doesn't live there and therefore doesn't drive on them in the first place.

It wouod surprise me mightily to find that the citizens of LA were funding public-access through-roads from the goodness of their hearts.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#137

Post by pervycreeper »

I'm not sure how desirable the new features are compared to existing currencies. It also doesn't seem any freer. Don't know what the association with GNU entails. Furthermore, its name is easily confused with the ancient denomination of "Thaler", I guess it's on purpose, but, once again, maybe not the greatest idea.

If they want to centralize a currency, perhaps that would be better done by a government or other experienced institution.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#138

Post by rhinoceraptor »

radmuzom wrote: post #13
davorb wrote: post #3

> Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income So exactly why would I want to use this?

Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…

> without taxes modern society cannot function at all

This is a great example of an argument from ignorance. We can't conceive of a high-functioning society without taxes, therefore, let it be known that one cannot exist.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#139

Post by rhinoceraptor »

yongjik wrote: post #92
mindcrime wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began Some roads have been built by government... not all where, and not all are even now. I'll posit that a significant number of Americans drive on at least one private road every single day. Chances are, if you live in any kind of suburban housing subdivision, the road right in front of your house actually wasn't created, and isn't maintained, by…

It might be an interesting thought experiment to build a country entirely using private roads, but I find it pretty confusing that one could rail against the government "taking money at gunpoint" and at the same time hold up private roads as an alternative example. How do you think private roads make money? Asking people nicely if they could donate money if they are so inclined? Yeah, maybe you could say "If you don'…

Joe can afford a car, gas, maintenance, but somehow can't afford a toll. Undeterred, he resorts to murder instead of riding a bike or riding the bus/train.

It's not a very plausible scenario.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#140

Post by Retra »

rhinoceraptor wrote: post #138
radmuzom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…

> without taxes modern society cannot function at all This is a great example of an argument from ignorance. We can't conceive of a high-functioning society without taxes, therefore, let it be known that one cannot exist.

Sounds to me like you're talking about some kind of post-modern society.
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