MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core • Hacker News Board

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#131

Post by BinaryIdiot » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

BetaCygni wrote: post #117

fiatjaf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who does not like MS because of the $ cannot at the same time like Java.

It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. I know of a company that is in real trouble because they first rewrote their entire application in Silverlight and now have to do it again in HTML5... Java on the desktop is almost dead due to the horrible JRE by Oracle. On the server and on Android it is alive and well,…

> It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight.

In all fairness all technology companies are like that. Hell even open source groups are like that. If the community disappears why would you continue to invest millions into it when better solutions are coming around the corner? Silverlight, for a while, was absolute king in video streaming (you could squeeze much more quality out of it than flash) but like with everything on the web unless it's strictly standards-based you're going to run the risk of it being discontinued when better standards come around.

I don't think that's really a fair knock against Microsoft.

> It will also make its return to the desktop one day when someone figures out how to make it suck less, as the language and the available libraries are awesome.

Good luck with that; it's going to take a desktop OS who can make a Java GUI framework feel native and not horrible and at this point I don't know why any of them would invest in this.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#132

Post by BetaCygni » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 2:30 PM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #131

BetaCygni wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. I know of a company that is in real trouble because they first rewrote their entire application in Silverlight and now have to do it again in HTML5... Java on the desktop is almost dead due to the horrible JRE by Oracle. On the server and on Android it is alive and well,…

> It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. In all fairness all technology companies are like that. Hell even open source groups are like that. If the community disappears why would you continue to invest millions into it when better solutions are coming around the corner? Silverlight, for a while, was absolute k…

It might not be fair; it's just that in my mind one moment Microsoft was hyping Silverlight and the next moment they were discontinuing it. That's not a nice way to treat your customers.

What Microsoft should have done is to make it compile to HTML5. Something like SmartGWT is a great way to write interface in Java. It may even be the way the Java ends up on the desktop again.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#133

Post by jammycakes » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

BetaCygni wrote: post #117

fiatjaf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who does not like MS because of the $ cannot at the same time like Java.

It's not a question of $ or of liking MS, it is a question of trust. Microsoft can and will suddenly discontinue entire solutions like Silverlight. I know of a company that is in real trouble because they first rewrote their entire application in Silverlight and now have to do it again in HTML5... Java on the desktop is almost dead due to the horrible JRE by Oracle. On the server and on Android it is alive and well,…

I always find it a bit puzzling when people blame Microsoft for the death of Silverlight. As an in-browser technology, Silverlight's success depended entirely on the willingness and ability of third-party browsers to support it. It just needed one browser to gain a significant market share and then refuse to play ball to pull the rug right from underneath Silverlight's feet. This is what happened in 2010 when Apple blocked it from the iPhone and the iPad. Sure, that move was aimed at Flash, but Silverlight took collateral damage from which it never recovered. That wasn't something that Microsoft could control.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#134

Post by radicalbyte » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #110

radicalbyte wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you're doing. If you're making libraries, console applications or doing modern websites it's pretty easy to get your build working without Visual Studio. One - ELEPHANT SIZE - problem is that for some reason Microsoft only ship the Windows SDKs as part of Visual Studio. Meaning that you'll need to install the IDE at least once to get a build running (you can copy the SDKs around after that). Microsoft…

The SDK has been shipped separately for ages.

With Windows 8 and 8.1 it took a long time for them to be released. Looks like that has been solved now.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#135

Post by m0v_eax » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

beastway wrote: post #55

Why would I want to deal with MS on any other platform? I want nothing to do with that company out of principal and I hope we can do a equally harmful shut out of MS in the future, they deserve their own medicine. No, into the trash it goes.

There are people other than you that matter.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#136

Post by brianwawok » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

frankzinger wrote: post #114

balefrost wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maven love is far from universal: http://kent.spillner.org/blog/work/2009/11/14/java-build-too...

Yeah and last time I used it at work (2012-2013) it didn't even support incremental builds. Even the company's best Java developers just accepted this as normal. See https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/Incrementa... for proof. That may have been implemented in the meantime but the fact is that maven had no support for incremental builds for at least 10 years (released in 2002). Amazing.

I think maven did not push incremental builds because there was not a big need.

Most people code Java in an IDE. Both Idea and Eclipse do incremental builds inside the IDE. So as you are coding, you are incremental building.

Every place I have used maven, maven was used for the build server and the final release. Spinning on a webpage changing some code? You are using your IDE for that.

(Now scala is a little bit different, so we have SBT with incremental support as a pretty ground level thing)

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#137

Post by carussell » Fri, Sep 04, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

carussell wrote: post #109

deegles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere that Microsoft's structured the patents/licenses in the .NET ecosystem in such a way as to make that kind of lawsuit unlikely. Can anyone comment if that is true?

Not true, at least not for the CLR and the framework itself. The crux of the Oracle v Google suit is basically, "It's Java, but it's not Java Java." If you take a look at the MS patent promise, the way it's authored specifically allows for the very same kind of suit. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/blob/master/PATENTS.TXT

Somebody didn't like this comment. Please explain.

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#138

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 12:58 AM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #3

I know MSBuild gets a lot of hate but this is still great news. The end goal of having a .Net project be compile-able on Windows, Linux and Mac is going to be awesome. I'm curious, when everything is finally done, what the adoption rates will be like. Will hard-core Linux users who used Java migrate when it makes sense? Will they avoid it because "M$"? All good stuff.

Does building .net projects require MSBuild?

Re: MSBuild is going cross-platform with .NET Core

#139

Post by godzilla82 » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 10:20 AM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #3

I know MSBuild gets a lot of hate but this is still great news. The end goal of having a .Net project be compile-able on Windows, Linux and Mac is going to be awesome. I'm curious, when everything is finally done, what the adoption rates will be like. Will hard-core Linux users who used Java migrate when it makes sense? Will they avoid it because "M$"? All good stuff.

Do you have any practical experience of using MSBuild? If you have ever worked on MSBuild and other build tools (e.g. ant, maven, even make for that matter), you would have noticed how difficult it is to write or extend simple build tasks in msbuild. Have you ever tried to use MSBuild to build anything on a machine that doesnt have visual studio installed? If you use any other ide, the separation of IDE and the compiler is very clear. Try figuring out the build parameters that Visual studio uses to compile your code.