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Amazon Underground

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Re: Amazon Underground

#131

I bought my daughters Kindle Fire's for Christmas. It doesn't have the Google Play store. 99.99% of the apps available, either free or even paid, are cookie cutter, mass produced, generic garbage. Almost all the free apps were complete junk. Besides that, the Kindle Fire is a fundamentally useless device for kids. The kid mode was so buggy as to be useless. Take more than a few minutes of video and the wifi won't wor…

You have my attention as a potential customer - you are saying Amazon FreeTime Unlimited is useless due to hardware/software issues? To me it seemed like a unique service no other company is attempting to provide right now. Can you give any additional detail regarding the device type and specific issues? Thanks in advance for your time!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?&docId=1000863021

Re: Amazon Underground

#132
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the real reason Amazon is doing this is that they want to get the Amazon App Store onto Google and carrier branded Android phones. It's a fight for survival and relevance against Google Play.

I think there should be an "app store" selection dialog, just as there should be a "default browser" selection dialog (ruled by the EU).

That might help, but I think that first there should be no rules that prevent apps which are not malicious and doesn't hurt end user from being in the app stores. What the world would have been like, if you wouldn't have had the ability to use IE6 to download Firefox?

Re: Amazon Underground

#133
post #130
post #12

Took me a minute to find out what "actually free" means: https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/do... "Interstitial Advertisements When a user launches an Amazon Underground app for the first time, a welcome message in the form of an interstitial ad plays. In subsequent times that a user either launches or resumes the app, paid interstitial ads will also sometimes play." Interesting. So amazon deal…

So, how much can I pay Amazon to make the ads go away?

After you find a game you like enough to pay for, you could always buy it directly.

Re: Amazon Underground

#134
So where are the actual apps? After jumping through all those hoops I get a 4th damn amazon app on my phone that just takes me to the amazon storepage? And displays the unground banner at the top (again) that leads to a blank page with just a refine search button on it?

Tempted to uninstall them all...except the Kindle.

Re: Amazon Underground

#136
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you contact CS? Amazon's customer support is amazingly good and would take care of that for you ASAP.

Customer support will be happy to refund your purchase, but there's nothing they can do about a fundamentally bad product

This clearly sounds like defective hardware that could be replaced.

Re: Amazon Underground

#137
My (still incomplete) analysis of whether it's worth it for my apps...

I have some paid and freemium puzzle apps on Amazon and Play that would fit this model well, because they don't currently have ads, large numbers of people play them for free without ever buying, and the puzzles take 10+ minutes to solve and people often play for 20-30mins most days. So, this was intriguing to me.

However, as always, the devil is in the details. Some things that I haven't seen (much?) in other comments yet:

- to be accepted to Underground, you have to have an existing app on Play or Amazon.

- the submitted app must be "substantially similar to or better". I.e. no stripping out extra volumes or removing key features

- that app must not already have ads

- you have to seamlessly migrate state for players already using your game (i.e. help your current paid? users move to free (for them))

- Amazon can show ads at the end, as well as at the beginning

- you can't change your mind and withdraw the app within the first 3 months

- if you do withdraw your app, you must continue to support it for anyone who has downloaded it (including keeping backend servers running etc)

- it's not permitted to tweak your app to try and game it for extra time spent

- if your app uses subscriptions, it's not eligible

- lots of fine print here, fwiw: https://developer.amazon.com/public/support/legal/da#AmazonU...

I ran basic numbers for my apps through Amazon's convenient calculator (https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/ca...). It's impossible to know some of outcomes, notably: how much appearing in Underground will canibalize my existing apps in either Play or Amazon?

If I niavely assume that all my usage & IAP payments switch immediately from Play & Amazon combined, to be just Amazon Underground, the numbers for one of my apps works out as:

- Number of user engaged minutes last month: 728300 (according to Flurry session tracking)

- Revenue for this app: USD$1446.37 (this is for 2 months prior, but close enough)

So, if I go to the calculator and enter 728300 minutes into Amazon, 0 mins for Google, $1446.37 Amazon revenue, $0 Google revenue, and 0% increase for both, then I get the magic number of $1457.

I.e., $10 more with Underground. But ... does this really mean anything?

On the dev/web jockey side, I figure about a day per app to adapt and submit it. Some of the steps needed for my apps are:

- rebuild the app with a different package name (presumably so it doesn't conflict with a prior installed version of my app

- ideally remove all IAP (if it is already Amazon IAP, then they'll just make it free anyway, but if it's Play, then rip it out / replace with "Unlock" instead of "Purchase" and skip the calls to Google). I have Amazon IAP already, but I'd spend a few minutes to make them all free instead. And maybe a few more minutes to remove the Amazon IAP support library. Then a few more minutes to resolve build errors. Then a few more minutes to test that I didn't screw it all up. (Repeat.)

- create a new app listing at the Amazon web site, following their carefully detailed criteria (https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/do...)

- add an "Actually Free" sash to my icon (https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/do...)

- build, test, repeat

TL;DR: I'm on the fence. Switching would indeed capture revenue from the 90% of users who never buy extra volumes. However, it could kill revenue from those who do. Other intangibles:

- will it annoy the customers who have paid me so far - by definition my best customers. Will they ask for refunds?

- will iOS customers demand something simlar?

- should I promote this to my customers?

- should I jump in REALLY fast (today!) so all the early Underground adopters find my apps because there will be fewer to choose from initially

For now, I'm sitting tight. I've had a strict "no ads" policy in all my apps so far (and no spyware either), so I'll see how it evolves.

One related detail: my app revenue for Android used to be evenly split between Amazon and Google Play. For the past twelve months, Amazon has been declining, even though Play (and iOS) have been gradually increasing. I'm not sure if this reflects declining Kindle Fire adoption, decreased visible of my apps in the Amazon store, or ... ?

I hope this adds some data to the commentary...

Re: Amazon Underground

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think the Free Software Foundation should really be called the Ad-Supported Software Foundation? "Free" and "ad-supported" mean completely different things, and always have done.

> "Free" and "ad-supported" mean completely different things, and always have done. "Free" in the context Amazon is using it (what Richard Stallman would refer to as Gratis) means that I do not have to pay money for something. That is a literal economic/dictionary definition. Therefore, ad-supported in this context is a subset of "Free," as is any other form of non-monetary subsidization. So long as the end user is n…

No, "ad supported" is not a subset of free.

If you show ads you're costing your users brain cycles and creating distraction and friction. The cost isn't monetary, but it's still a real indirect cost.

If it wasn't a real cost, ad-blockers would hardly be as popular as they are - and the ad industry wouldn't be quite so worried about them.

IMO the idea that anyone can believe the two models are identical from the user's point of view is not encouraging.

Re: Amazon Underground

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customer support will be happy to refund your purchase, but there's nothing they can do about a fundamentally bad product

This clearly sounds like defective hardware that could be replaced.

The hardware is fine, it's a software issue.
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