Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped • Hacker News Board

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#131

Post by thekingofspain » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 3:52 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #119

talmand wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are saying that while watering my lawn if I feel deep in my heart I'm committing a crime then I am, in fact, committing a crime? Plus your stabbing example doesn't explain anything since you would have indeed physically harmed someone which is against the law in most jurisdictions. Considering your rape/not-rape example, a better example is that you would be arrested for thinking about stabbing someone in the…

No, you need two things: the intent* and the act. If the act of watering your lawn isn't an element of any crime, then you're fine. If the victim says that the accused did X, Y, and then Z, that is a statement of fact about what happened. If the victim then says that he doesn't think that X, Y, and Z constitute a crime, that is a statement about the law..which might just be incorrect. * except for strict liability cr…

The thing about rape is that the intent and the act are very much intertwined with the victim's feelings of it. If the victim does not appreciate whatever is going on, the onus is on the perpetrator to realize that and stop. Failure to do so is "the act" and the intent is.. well, the state of mind where you do not choose to find out/acquiesce to the other person's desires.

However, if the "victim" says there was no rape, and has never said so, then the whole premise, including both the intent and the act, is unseated.

Disclaimer: I am no lawyer, and do not know much about this specific case. These are just my intuitions about rape laws. I also believe that if the laws, in fact, are much different from these ideas in spirit, they are SORELY off-base.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#132

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 3:58 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #118

stephengillie wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that if I take something that belongs to another person, but I believe that I should have it, no crime has been committed? That sounds like an interesting theory on Crime and Punishment . Edit: If you feel I've misunderstood the parent comment, please provide a better explanation.

If you take something that belongs to another person, but you believe you do own it, no crime has been committed. For example, if walk out of a store thinking you paid for a bag of groceries when in fact the card reader had errored and you need to swipe again. That isn't shoplifting, that is a mistake of fact. This concept is called "mens rea" or "guilty mind". A statute for each crime should define what type of mens…

[deleted]

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#133

Post by jbssm » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:04 PM UTC

stenl wrote: post #129

Bohahahaha wrote: post #79

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

From that link: "the Swedish authorities have never explained why they refuse to give Assange a guarantee that they will not extradite him on to the US under a secret arrangement agreed between Stockholm and Washington." Weeeell, maybe because Sweden is a democracy and has no "authorities" that can guarantee the outcome of hypothetical future legal proceedings. Also, note that Assange was obviously in Sweden when the…

"maybe because Sweden is a democracy and has no "authorities" that can guarantee the outcome of hypothetical future legal proceedings."

An extradition is not a legal proceeding, it's a diplomatic one and being a democracy they can very well agree not to engage in a diplomatic exchange beforehand.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#134

Post by jbssm » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

nedwin wrote: post #126

philh wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those are quite conflicting. It sounds like Assange says he's happy for the Swedes to do it, but the Swedes are saying they can't get permission from Ecuador. OTOH we have Assange saying "this Swedish official refused both", which could be conflicting, but it's pretty vague.

I read in an article posted here yesterday that the reason for the stalemate is that Ecuador is demanding Sweden make statements to the effect that Assange is in a legal asylum at the embassy. Sweden don't want to get involved in that side of things, they just want to interview him and so have refused that demand.

That doesn't stick because Sweden has refused to interview him in the UK like Assange asked them to do it before he asked Ecuador for asylum. Instead, at the time, Sweden asked UK for his extradition back to Sweden.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#135

Post by jbssm » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:11 PM UTC

Bohahahaha wrote: post #55

Assange was now 5yrs 'imprisoned', how much would he have gotten in Sweden on the charges? (if proven guilty)

Assange was not particularly afraid of the outcome of the rape allegations. He was afraid of Sweden extraditing him to the USA.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#136

Post by deciplex » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

stenl wrote: post #129

Bohahahaha wrote: post #79

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

From that link: "the Swedish authorities have never explained why they refuse to give Assange a guarantee that they will not extradite him on to the US under a secret arrangement agreed between Stockholm and Washington." Weeeell, maybe because Sweden is a democracy and has no "authorities" that can guarantee the outcome of hypothetical future legal proceedings. Also, note that Assange was obviously in Sweden when the…

>Also, note that Assange was obviously in Sweden when the rape allegedly happened, and only became conveniently afraid of extraditiom to US after those allegations surfaced.

The allegations surfaced in August 2010, four months after Collateral Murder and one month after the Afghan War Diary was released. Also earlier that year the diplomatic cable releases began, and while most hadn't been released yet by August, some had, and they were a recently-known quantity by then.

The timing of the allegations was awfully convenient. Far more "convenient" than Assange's paranoia.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#137

Post by OvidNaso » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #118

stephengillie wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that if I take something that belongs to another person, but I believe that I should have it, no crime has been committed? That sounds like an interesting theory on Crime and Punishment . Edit: If you feel I've misunderstood the parent comment, please provide a better explanation.

If you take something that belongs to another person, but you believe you do own it, no crime has been committed. For example, if walk out of a store thinking you paid for a bag of groceries when in fact the card reader had errored and you need to swipe again. That isn't shoplifting, that is a mistake of fact. This concept is called "mens rea" or "guilty mind". A statute for each crime should define what type of mens…

But in a case of property dispute, this contradicts what you said about the mind of the victim not mattering. If I am in your house and believe that the playstation is mine and walk out with it. Weather or not it is a crime is entirely dependent on what you believe about ownership of the playstation. Entirely on "whether or not the victim feels they were wronged".

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#138

Post by philh » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

Tloewald wrote: post #124

philh wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those are quite conflicting. It sounds like Assange says he's happy for the Swedes to do it, but the Swedes are saying they can't get permission from Ecuador. OTOH we have Assange saying "this Swedish official refused both", which could be conflicting, but it's pretty vague.

Assange is claiming they can talk to him any time and the Swedes are saying they've tried and can't. That's a pretty direct conflict. Either one or the other is being disingenuous at best and outright lying at worst.

> Assange is claiming they can talk to him any time

The closest I can see to this is:

> From the beginning I offered simple solutions. Come to the embassy to take my statement or promise not to send me to the United States.

which doesn't contradict the Swedes saying they've tried and failed. I guess you can argue that it's disingenuous.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#139

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

marrs wrote: post #127

cmdkeen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he became afraid of extradition conveniently at the point at which he was facing extradition. Before then he was quite happy to spend lots of time in the West apparently unconcerned by the threat. Something that is often left out... The UK was happy to extradite him to Sweden, we extradite people to the US as long as they aren't going to be executed. So quite why the UK extraditing him to Sweden who would then e…

In fairness, most people only become afraid of something when they're facing it. As for the conspiracy theory, maybe it was the product of paranoid thinking. A more obvious conspiracy theory to me is that the US saw an opportunity to smear Assange and lent on Sweden to trump up the charges.

And yet the best they could do was 'these girls who said that he had quasi consensual ('I was sleeping') sex with them and want him to do a HIV test'?

That's a pretty low bar for a smear campaign.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#140

Post by kiiski » Thu, Aug 13, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #117

knodi123 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden. Although to be clear, there are no rape charges involved in the Assange case. The crime he is accused of in Sweden is not even illegal in some countries.

The BBC [1][2] and Guardian [3] are describing the remaining charge as rape. [1] quotes the Swedish prosecutor (in 2010): "There is reason to believe that a crime has been committed," she says in a statement. "Considering information available at present, my judgement is that the classification of the crime is rape." Wikipedia [4] gives the Swedish term as "våldtäkt", which Google translates as "Rape": "On 18 Novembe…

A small correction to what you said, the allegations (that you quoted) were lowered after Assange appealed (but the rape still remains, although as a "lesser degree").

Your [4]:

> The decision was appealed by Assange on 22 November to the Svea Court of Appeal, which two days later upheld the warrant but lowered it to suspicion of rape of a lesser degree, unlawful coercion and two cases of sexual molestation rather than three.