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Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

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Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#131

Post by gress »

travjones wrote: post #129
gress wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be what you think, but you continue to argue (condescendingly) that behavior analysis is the only valid approach to any topic concerning human behavior. Now you do so by an appeal to authority. Have you considered the possibility that some philosophy might actually be useful in this domain? [incidentally: I have nothing against behavioral analysis in itself - just the claim that thinking about what goes on…

My bad for coming off as condescending. That wasn't my intention. Philosophy is useful when talking about or discussing things. The problem with philosophy though is it doesn't allow one to predict and control behavior. Thus, if practical behavior change is your goal then behavior analysis is appropriate.

Prediction and control is not the only paradigm for causing behavior change, indeed it may frequently be the least appropriate one.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#132

Post by travjones »

gress wrote: post #131
travjones wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bad for coming off as condescending. That wasn't my intention. Philosophy is useful when talking about or discussing things. The problem with philosophy though is it doesn't allow one to predict and control behavior. Thus, if practical behavior change is your goal then behavior analysis is appropriate.

Prediction and control is not the only paradigm for causing behavior change, indeed it may frequently be the least appropriate one.

Prediction and control is what science rests on whether we're talking about behavior or physics. You can't prove that an independent variable (IV) caused a change in a dependent variable (e.g., behavior) unless you can predict and control it by systematically manipulating the IV while observing changes in the DV.

However, this is way beyond the scope of the original blog post or my original comment. In my first comment, I offered an alternative description of a phenomenon that the author described. You suggested that I was advocating for "strict behaviorism." That wasn't the case, so I clarified. At this point, I'm not sure what the purpose of this discussion is.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#133

Post by gress »

travjones wrote: post #132
gress wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prediction and control is not the only paradigm for causing behavior change, indeed it may frequently be the least appropriate one.

Prediction and control is what science rests on whether we're talking about behavior or physics. You can't prove that an independent variable (IV) caused a change in a dependent variable (e.g., behavior) unless you can predict and control it by systematically manipulating the IV while observing changes in the DV. However, this is way beyond the scope of the original blog post or my original comment. In my first comme…

The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that.

I agree that humans influencing each other through talking about how they think about things is a hard phenomenon to reduce to the kind of science that you are advocating, but that is a limitation of your preferred methods, and it's inappropriate to dismiss phenomena just because you don't have a good way to understand them.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#134

Post by travjones »

gress wrote: post #133
travjones wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prediction and control is what science rests on whether we're talking about behavior or physics. You can't prove that an independent variable (IV) caused a change in a dependent variable (e.g., behavior) unless you can predict and control it by systematically manipulating the IV while observing changes in the DV. However, this is way beyond the scope of the original blog post or my original comment. In my first comme…

The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that. I agree that humans influencing each other through talking about how they think about things is a hard phenomenon to reduce to the kind of science that you are advocating, but that is a limitation of your preferred methods, and it's inappropriate…

> "The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that."

I agree that people sharing information about how they think about things may INFLUENCE behavior. In your previous comment you used the term "cause." These are very different words, especially when we are talking about science. It's not clear what you think I dismissed.

> "inappropriate to dismiss phenomena just because you don't have a good way to understand them."

I never suggested that we dismiss phenomena. If you read my original comment, I agreed with the authors general premise but I offered an alternative explanation: "This phenomenon is better described by the concept of immediacy of reinforcement. As one decreases the delay to reinforcement, the strength of behavior maintained by that reinforcer increases."

Thus, I'm not sure what your point is.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#135

Post by gress »

travjones wrote: post #134
gress wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that. I agree that humans influencing each other through talking about how they think about things is a hard phenomenon to reduce to the kind of science that you are advocating, but that is a limitation of your preferred methods, and it's inappropriate…

> "The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that." I agree that people sharing information about how they think about things may INFLUENCE behavior. In your previous comment you used the term "cause." These are very different words, especially when we are talking about science. It's not clear…

In that same paragraph you quote from, you dismissed the author's reasoning about thinking processes. You didn't simply 'offer an alternative'.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#136

Post by travjones »

gress wrote: post #135
travjones wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The purpose is to point out that people sharing information about how they think about things is a valid a way of influencing behavior. You are simply wrong to dismiss that." I agree that people sharing information about how they think about things may INFLUENCE behavior. In your previous comment you used the term "cause." These are very different words, especially when we are talking about science. It's not clear…

In that same paragraph you quote from, you dismissed the author's reasoning about thinking processes. You didn't simply 'offer an alternative'.

You are incorrect. I did not dismiss the author's reasoning. I said: "We could not confirm or disconfirm this as truth, say in the context of an experiment." The author isn't running an experiment, he's just talking about how he feels when he does things quickly. So what's your point?

My point in the original comment about the concept of immediacy of reinforcement is that it is a broader, evidence-based concept that encompasses what the author described. I thought HN users might get value from such an explanation as they could apply it to more aspects of their lives than just "doing things quickly." It seems as though your purpose is to argue with me over things I didn't say or ideas I don't hold, which isn't productive or meaningful to the HN community.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#137

Post by gress »

travjones wrote: post #136
gress wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that same paragraph you quote from, you dismissed the author's reasoning about thinking processes. You didn't simply 'offer an alternative'.

You are incorrect. I did not dismiss the author's reasoning. I said: "We could not confirm or disconfirm this as truth, say in the context of an experiment." The author isn't running an experiment, he's just talking about how he feels when he does things quickly. So what's your point? My point in the original comment about the concept of immediacy of reinforcement is that it is a broader, evidence-based concept that…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10024791

In this reply, you are wholly dismissive of discussions about behavior that do not solely use behavior analysis.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#138

Post by [deleted] »

travjones wrote: post #136
gress wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that same paragraph you quote from, you dismissed the author's reasoning about thinking processes. You didn't simply 'offer an alternative'.

You are incorrect. I did not dismiss the author's reasoning. I said: "We could not confirm or disconfirm this as truth, say in the context of an experiment." The author isn't running an experiment, he's just talking about how he feels when he does things quickly. So what's your point? My point in the original comment about the concept of immediacy of reinforcement is that it is a broader, evidence-based concept that…

[deleted]

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#139

Post by travjones »

gress wrote: post #137
travjones wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are incorrect. I did not dismiss the author's reasoning. I said: "We could not confirm or disconfirm this as truth, say in the context of an experiment." The author isn't running an experiment, he's just talking about how he feels when he does things quickly. So what's your point? My point in the original comment about the concept of immediacy of reinforcement is that it is a broader, evidence-based concept that…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10024791 In this reply, you are wholly dismissive of discussions about behavior that do not solely use behavior analysis.

First, that's not the reply you were talking about when you stated that I was being dismissive above. Yet, your interpretation is still wrong. Second, except for the first sentence I didn't even use the term "behavior analysis" and instead used the term "science." Nowhere in that reply did I suggest that "discussions about behavior that do not solely use behavior analysis" should be dismissed. Throughout this discussion, you have attempted to mischaracterize my statements and your most recent reply is another example. Thus, I'm not sure what your point is other than attempting to build a strawman and blow it down.

Re: Speed matters: Why working quickly is more important than it seems

#140

Post by gress »

travjones wrote: post #139
gress wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10024791 In this reply, you are wholly dismissive of discussions about behavior that do not solely use behavior analysis.

First, that's not the reply you were talking about when you stated that I was being dismissive above. Yet, your interpretation is still wrong. Second, except for the first sentence I didn't even use the term "behavior analysis" and instead used the term "science." Nowhere in that reply did I suggest that "discussions about behavior that do not solely use behavior analysis" should be dismissed. Throughout this discuss…

Now you are being intellectually dishonest. You didn't use the term behavioral analysis in that specific reply. True, you used he word science, but this is irrelevant to the fact that you were dismissive.

Attempting to evade this through being pedantic rather supports my point.

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