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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#121

Post by Retra »

vonklaus wrote: post #21

This was awesome. Not because it dispels a meme that is negative in the industry, not because it is some sort of proof a woman can succeed in tech, or any other of this tropic nonsense. It was such an amazing message that was totally gender neutral: "I like building things because I am curious and I pursue knowledge for its own sake" With all the confirmation bias and name calling (which I am certainly guilty of from…

Your attitude is disappointing and short-sighted. It reminds me of a discussion I had some time ago where someone was saying "Moore's law ensures we don't have to worry about optimization."

But Moore's law isn't a law of nature, it's a consequence of human behavior. Moore's law is true because hardware designers are focused on optimization! It just wouldn't be true if everyone agreed not to focus on optimization.

And here you are saying "If we all focussed on tech problems, we wouldn't have to worry about social problems." But social problems don't fix themselves. Social equality is not a law of nature. Someone has to work on it.

In effect, you are trying to argue something that contradicts one of the assumptions you've used in your argument.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#122

Post by cousin_it »

jarcane wrote: post #117
yummyfajitas wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. Yes, this is the economic assumption - folks are greedy and will exploit undervalued resources. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. This ignores the history of various oppressed groups who unbent themsel…

Those oppressed groups mostly came "unbent" because they stopped putting up with their oppressors and started killing them. Are you even at all aware of the history of any of the examples you just cited?

Jewish folks and South Asian folks overcame discrimination from Americans by killing them? Are you from Earth-2?

Read Steven Dutch's essay "The world's most toxic value system" [1] before you recommend violence as a solution to any group's problems. It's a comfortably direct approach, but it backfires. It creates a class of violent people who will push others down, so the group as a whole stays down.

[1] http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/toxicval.htm

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#123

Post by [deleted] »

jarcane wrote: post #117
yummyfajitas wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. Yes, this is the economic assumption - folks are greedy and will exploit undervalued resources. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. This ignores the history of various oppressed groups who unbent themsel…

Those oppressed groups mostly came "unbent" because they stopped putting up with their oppressors and started killing them. Are you even at all aware of the history of any of the examples you just cited?

[deleted]

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#124

Post by [deleted] »

psycr wrote: post #64
geofft wrote: post #7

This is from 2013. It seems like a response to something, possibly one of Shanley's essays that's now no longer on Medium; I can't help but feel that I'm missing context as I get towards the end. This also seems like a straightforward example of how mainstream feminism is bad at intersectionality. Arguably both sides in this discussion are not great at it: I feel like there's probably a good answer that involves neit…

I don't know what this means: > This also seems like a straightforward example of how mainstream feminism is bad at intersectionality. Can you explain? What are they bad at?

[deleted]

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#125

Post by nmrm2 »

psycr wrote: post #64
geofft wrote: post #7

This is from 2013. It seems like a response to something, possibly one of Shanley's essays that's now no longer on Medium; I can't help but feel that I'm missing context as I get towards the end. This also seems like a straightforward example of how mainstream feminism is bad at intersectionality. Arguably both sides in this discussion are not great at it: I feel like there's probably a good answer that involves neit…

I don't know what this means: > This also seems like a straightforward example of how mainstream feminism is bad at intersectionality. Can you explain? What are they bad at?

(edit: just read geofft's post instead)

I think parent is referring to the fact that the author of the article seems to feel as if her experiences as an autistic person are invalidated by the dominant feminist narrative in tech, and that she is supposed to apologize for her experiences:

...if they tried walking around in my shoes for once.

There’s a noticeable empathy vacuum in the room, and for once it’s not coming from the direction of the sperglord.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#126

Post by onion2k »

[deleted] wrote: post #110
rayiner wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just. The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. You have to hamm…

[deleted]

Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women.

Perhaps women choose not to study computer science because they feel it'd be overly difficult to get in to an industry made up of 80% men. What if the fact there are relatively few women tech workers is the reason few women study it, and not the reverse as you're inferring.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#127

Post by mc32 »

jarcane wrote: post #117
yummyfajitas wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that racism and sexism result in elastic deformation of society that will go away as soon as you remove whatever force is warping it. Yes, this is the economic assumption - folks are greedy and will exploit undervalued resources. I don't think history bears that out. Society is a soft ductile metal. If you bend it, it'll stay bent. This ignores the history of various oppressed groups who unbent themsel…

Those oppressed groups mostly came "unbent" because they stopped putting up with their oppressors and started killing them. Are you even at all aware of the history of any of the examples you just cited?

Perhaps they were referring to the respective diasporas who succeeded by investing in their own education. The groups cited tend to be high academic achievers or at least put great emphasis on academics so much so that American born sometimes avoid some school districts with high achieving groups for being over competitive.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#128

Post by theorique »

KingMob wrote: post #63
Kenji wrote: post #30

There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. It was the funniest thing I’d heard in months — I literally doubled over laughing at how nonplussed he must have been to see it not only implemented, but implemented to rousing success. Now that's a woman I respect. Instead of whining around, she just implements it. Suckerpunched the misogynist. You…

So... more perceptive women, who see from the outset that they will have to work twice as hard to be only equally respected in the industry, should shut up and get to work instead of pointing out the unfairness? They should toil for a decade or two in order to have the requisite cred before complaining about injustice? You don't even know your "stop complaining and start doing" solution will work. Since the anti-fema…

see from the outset that they will have to work twice as hard to be only equally respected in the industry

'citation needed'

When I work with females who do the work, and don't turn into weird drama queens, they get equivalent respect and reward as the guys.

People sometimes get afraid that a female will not be normal at work, and instead reveal herself as some kind of angry, complaining, entitled SJW who believes she is entitled to unearned respect or accolades. (To be fair, guys can show this too, but usually they are shut down faster and harder, because they don't have the "but I'm a girl" card.)

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#129

Post by logfromblammo »

et1337 wrote: post #20

The only problem I have with feminism is that it's often a movement against men, and not for women. I think they would be a lot more successful doing things to encourage women rather than disparage men. Meredith would not have had to write this article. Of course, it's a lot harder to be positive rather than negative.

I have also encountered the misandrist feminists. Your impression of their numbers may be inflated due to their ability to attract additional attention by stirring up conflict.

The nearer-to-the-median feminists are quieter because, in 2015, they have already achieved a large majority of the original goals of the movement, and all that is really required now is for the old bigots to die off or retire, and for the largely sex-egalitarian younger generations to take over the reins of power.

Feminist extremists are, by demanding faster and more extreme cultural changes, rallying the last bastions of misogynists to unite in opposition, in one of the best real-world examples of the Batman Effect[0] that I have ever seen. Anyone who joins in their squabbles tends to get dragged down into the mud with them. Just back away slowly.

Additionally, newly-minted masculinists revive "manly" traditions like moustache waxing, shaving with straight razors, overblown midlife crises, cars with carburetors, and paleo dieting and lifestyle practices. Their champions are characters like Ron Swanson and Isaiah "Old Spice Guy" Mustafa. They avoid conflict with feminists by focusing mainly on things most women simply have no interest in. Like growing out your facial hair.

If you avoid looking at the loud, flashy extremists, we all seem to be doing pretty well, and still steadily improving, on the remaining sexual equality issues.

[0] Batman Effect: Any sufficiently powerful social force will generate its own opposition. Corrupt Gotham created the Batman. The Batman created crime-lords like the Joker. There is no sound of one hand clapping, because another hand always rises to meet it.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#130

Post by dvdcxn »

marijn wrote: post #39
traverseda wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From another article of hers, [when nerds collide]( https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c ) >[ ... ] much of the backlash from weird nerds against “brogrammers” and “geek feminists” alike. (If you thought the conflict was only between those two groups, or that someone who criticises one group must necessarily be a member of the other, then you haven’t been paying close enough attention.) Both g…

The single comment below is exactly the self-indulgent whining against feminism in general I was expecting (as are some of the comments on here on HN)

To be fair, your posts read like self indulgent whining about those who you profess to self indulgently whine.
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