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How I’d redesign piano sheet music

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Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#121

Yes, musical notation is hard. But no, this is not an improvement. While a lot of the problems of it comes from its limitations at the origin (think medieval musicians writing music) it is a very flexible and interesting format What are the problems I see with it: - Apart from the center notes, it's hard to know which note is which. I know that the second line from the bottom is a G, beats me what's that thing 3 line…

It's clearly stated that the solution is meant to be like guitar tabs for piano. It's a limited, instrument-centered approach and not intended as a complete or universal solution.

Traditional sheet music is already like guitar tabs for piano, because pianos (unlike guitars) only have one physical place where you can play a given note (like middle C). The reason guitar tabs make some sense [0] for guitar music is that "middle C" on a guitar can be played on several different strings.

[0] I say "some sense," because tabs are still fairly limiting, particularly in depicting complex rhythms. Traditional sheet music is still very common (and, I contend, indispensable) for advanced guitar study.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#122
EUREKA! 1.)learn from what U know - Vim, Zshell, Python and engineering 2.)more MATURE so learn the ORGAN not a piano! 3.)go jazz, play from radio, never bought a book on circle of 5ths 4.)some are slow, tool over 6-12 months to coordinate left and right hands. playing off syncopate all the time. 5.)CLICK! read the book. Eureka! suddenly some of it works. 6.)ORGAN is more expensive but MUCH easier can hold down key, change the instrument,etc.

7.)have not looked at sight read, since either jazz or direct composition. I USED the simple method. tap the beat with feet. use basic drumstick to sound melody with pots whistle the 2nd part, etc. 3 piece band?

8.)hobby only, not stress tested like real code

9.) the auto transfer from guitar chord trellis to ORGAN can be useful.

QUESTION: better to go deep first? and be a genius on organ for Tchaikovsky? or just go radio plus jazz and make it up HACKER STYLE as U go?

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#123
I love the idea of trying to come up with a better way of notating music to make it more accessible. That's a great idea.

However, I'm skeptical that this is it. First, looking at the 2 notations of "Let it Be," we can see that the new notation does not convey the same data, or even a simplified version of it. It's a different version of it. I find that odd.

Second, I don't think learning music notation is very difficult. I learned to read treble and bass clef when I was 5 years old. It was much harder trying to make my fingers press the right keys at the right time than memorizing which circle on which line matched with which key or note.

Looking at this, I'm reminded of Laban notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laban_Movement_Analysis) and Benesh Notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benesh_Movement_Notation) for notating dance. Both are very complicated and essentially never used by the people who actually do the dancing. Furthermore, I'm told that Benesh, for example, allows a notator to add written (human-language) notes below the staff to convey additional information. In other words, they know it doesn't convey everything it's supposed to.

So what do dancers do? They learn from video. They watch the masters who went before them directly performing the movement. Frankly, I think it would be great to see something similar for music. Having a video of someone playing a keyboard from above, possibly with a graphical overlay showing the notes pressed would be way better (in my opinion). (Which isn't to say it's without issues - far more bandwidth, video codecs, playback hardware, etc.)

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#124
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The value of SN is that it's abstract . It assumes a certain structure (the one that western music uses) and describes melody in terms of that structure. It doesn't concern itself with the actual sounds involved (eg. frequencies and durations) or the mechanics of producing them (eg. tablature). SN is difficult for beginners because music is difficult for beginners. Notations that focus on the mechanics of th…

One thing I'm familiar with, thanks to my kids, is the Suzuki method of violin instruction. Kids start out just playing by rote memorization, and by ear, with no charts. There were books for the Suzuki repertoire, more for the use of adults, as the kids didn't read from them. When I was growing up, Suzuki was controversial in the US because teachers were afraid that kids would lose the chance to learn how to read, an…

Well we all learn to talk well before we learn to read and write, so I guess it's not too farfetched.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#125
I want to say that it's really exciting to see something TAB-like for piano. Something to ease the learning curve into instruments other than guitar I think are in dire need. I hope more instruments can get this kind of easy-to-learn-notation.

I hope this doesn't entirely replace staff notation. The reason for this is because of its connection to music theory. Once I got to a certain level with the violin, I didn't have to think about how notes mapped to the violin physically, but was able to think more in terms of music theory (or at least it was rather easy to switch between the two). This opens up an entire world if you start tinkering with improvisation and gives you a common language with other musicians.

I think staff notation is also quite amazing because it represents music in such a way that it can be easily understood by musicians of many, many instruments at a glance. Imagine writing a symphony of however many instruments in different kinds of notation, or being the conductor who has to read it all simultaneously...

All that being said, I could totally imagine a world where a huge percentage of musicians (especially amateurs) learn only these easily readable musical languages, while people who want to dive deeper learn staff.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#126
post #105

I really love this. When I was young, I was really excited to learn to play the piano. The biggest problem I had was being able to read the sheet music. It was incredibly difficult for me to read and understand the notes for both hands at the same time. A big part of this was that when individual notes were off the normal staff (e.g., C is below the staff), you either had to have an innate sense of how far from the s…

tl;dr don't cripple yourself with substandard notation when it takes 2 weeks to learn it. You shouldn't be counting. Any decent pedagogical training is going to introduce the lower and higher notes one at a time. And 'decent' can include self learning. Have some patience and don't try to jump into advanced things right off. You will just learn bad habits. Say you know by sight all the notes g below middle c. The next…

What you say is not wrong but it's just not that simple for some people. In my case I did start with the basics, learned to play all the notes and could tell you any fact that the written music represented. The note, whether it was sharp or flat, the fingering to play it on my horn, the meter, the tempo, whether to play staccato or legato, fortissimo or piano, etc. but after four years as a kid I was never able to put it all together at tempo on sight. Once I had learned the piece yes I could use the written music as a reference and play it. But never on first sight. And I really don't think it had anything to do with the notation.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#127
post #21

What happens if you rotate that first image 90° counter-clockwise? http://i.imgur.com/i2V57On.png You get a traditional sheet music with simpler graphics. What about the new features? - Easily printable: traditional scores already are - Screen and scroll-friendly: you can stack traditional score pages vertically - Chord names: already exist on traditional scores - Lyrics: same thing - Foot pedal arrows: same thing Th…

Totally agree. And it's less compact, more verbose, "too graphical" I might say. It's fine to show how to play "Der Flohwalzer" or something, but would be horrible for reading complicated pieces or reasoning about several parties at once. Not to say it's nearly impossible to read the music note-by-note as you play, so you are always thinking in patterns which are hard to recognize when written like that.

So, no way it could replace traditional notation. It could be used to show how to play something to a newcomer, but it's not novel, then — I've seen visualizations with highlighted piano keys since like as long as I remember myself. And not that practical anyway, since it's not that hard to remember how to read musical notation and start using it right away (especially if there's no alteration symbols in the key signature and no somewhat obscure symbols like fermatas and stuff).

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#128
post #123

I love the idea of trying to come up with a better way of notating music to make it more accessible. That's a great idea. However, I'm skeptical that this is it. First, looking at the 2 notations of "Let it Be," we can see that the new notation does not convey the same data, or even a simplified version of it. It's a different version of it. I find that odd. Second, I don't think learning music notation is very diffi…

I have always wondered how dance/ballet is recorded, and I'm not surprised it comes down to video. But music is more limited data I think, an opinion supported by the fact that sheet music exists and sheet dance is still questionable.

There's a passage in a piano piece I'm having trouble with and I tried watching videos of pros on youtube to figure out how to play it. It was frustrating and almost useless. The video goes by too fast. Granted, I was looking for technical details, not notes, but I think notes would be almost as hard.

E.g. Can you tell what notes are being played in the video below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8IHzqVKugE&t=35

Here's another fun one to try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpXqdBKSSFo&t=4m51s

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#129
The only people who waste time trying to reinvent the wheel are those who never use a wheel.

This is silly. Standard notation isn't absolutely perfect but it's pretty darn good. If a symphony can come out of dozens of musicians consistently by using standard notation I think we are OK.

I think the problem often has to do with not wanting to put in the time to master not only the notation and the instrument but also the hours and hours of work required to crate the synaptic connections necessary to read and play without thinking.

It's like complaining about vim because it is hard to learn. The problem isn't vim, the problem is the person who doesn't want to do the work.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#130
post #61
post #9

I think this a cool idea. I think piano needs its own version of the guitar tab to be more approachable. For someone who knows the basics, just seeing the chords goes a long way. But this gives better detail. One thing it glosses over is how the format responds to greater range. It acknowledges the fact that only 3 of piano's ~7 octaves are shown, but it doesn't address how much difficult it would be to read if there…

The best way to do that stackable staves: see the last two lines here: http://i.imgur.com/tqZRXzt.jpg Ledger lines preserve the melodic contour but it's harder to read the notes. 8va's stay within the regular five lines you know how to read, but fragment the melodic curve. This way has the advantages of both the above and the disadvantage of neither. (The lack of key sig in that image is a limitation of the software…

That's cool, I hadn't played any piece that uses the stacked staff (to my recollection anyway; it's been a good 15 years since I was actively training). It does work better for when the melody progresses into that range, true, but I think it's a "right tool for the job" situation. Often 8va's are used for when you want to raise a single note or chord one time, and that would be much more readable than a separate staff or ledger lines. It seems like it's a random access vs sequential read type thing. 8va is better if you're jumping to a far octave with no intermediate context; stacked staves would be better for when the melody incrementally takes you there.

I'd love to see what the equivalents of both approaches would be in this notation.

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