Live data from Hacker News

AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

washingtonpost.com

121–130 of 169 posts

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#121
post #14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what does unlimited mean then in your definition? Even before they throttle, you will be limited by the throughput of the cell tower.

FYI, "unlimited data" != "unlimited throughput". No one's asking for unlimited throughput. What people who signed up thought they were getting was pretty straightforward - unlimited data at the throughput promised. Period.

> unlimited data at the throughput promised

I'm with you, but I've noticed that ISPs generally state speeds using "up to". Eg, AT&T's lowest U-verse tier gives you "Speeds up to 6Mbps".

Which is exactly the worst guarantee possible. "Don't worry, we certainly won't give you more than 6Mbps!"

Of course, if you pay them more, they'll guarantee not to give you more than 18Mbps.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 21GB they de-prioritize you. Even on the unlimited 4G LTE plan. That doesn't happen on Verizon, people push multiple terabytes a month on those plans and have no throttling or deprioritization of any kind. It's in the fine print: http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html > *Unlimited 4G LTE customers who use more than 21 GB of data in a bill cycle will have their data usage de-prioritized compare…

people push multiple terabytes a month on those plans and have no throttling or deprioritization of any kind. Interesting. I'm in the market for an unlimited plan and am vetting providers. It would be helpful if you could link to the info.

They have been cracking down on unlimited data customers over the last year or so. For about 3 months last year after the iPhone 6 was released, there was a bug on Apple's website that allowed anyone with an existing unlimited data plan or old nationwide style tiered family plan to add on a new line to that plan with unlimited data. People were using this bug to max out their family plans with new unlimited data lines (while also getting subsidized priced iPhones), and promptly selling or even giving away the unlimited data lines to other people on eBay, HowardForums, Reddit etc.

This was done via a process called Assumption of Liability (AOL) where you transfer billing and contract responsibility to another person for that line. Up until November 13th, 2014 the unlimited data plan would be retained during one of these transfers so someone who was not already a Verizon customer, or was a customer but didn't have an unlimited data line could obtain one easily. The people abusing the bug on Apple's website would rinse and repeat using this process while simultaneously selling their brand new iPhones they just bought for $199 for $600+ and because people wanted unlimited data lines, they could hand those lines under contract away for someone else to deal with (a lot of profit with this whole scheme).

Now however unless you already have an unlimited data plan, there is no way to obtain one. There are people on eBay who rent you a line on their family plan for an amount of money per month but you have to put your trust in them to not screw you over. I have read rumors of an unlimited data AOL working if it's being transferred to an account that already has a line with unlimited data but that doesn't help if you don't already have one and want one.

Verizon also does not allow you to directly use your unlimited data line's 2 year upgrade on your unlimited data line. There are ways around this where you can use make use of your "upgrade" and obtain an device at subsidized pricing and still keep your unlimited line. The easiest situation would be if you have a family plan with an unlimited data line, and a tiered data line. If the tiered data line has an upgrade available you can upgrade that line directly and then swap your unlimited data line sim card into the new phone. If the tiered line is already under contract, the Verizon iconic portal (easily found on google), allows you to transfer your upgrade from your unlimited line to your tiered data line, and proceed with ordering a phone. This will use the upgrade from your unlimited line and extend its contract by two years, but will NOT make unlimited data fall off your line. Once the phone arrives, you simply swap your sim card from your old phone on the unlimited line into the new phone and it works without issue.

The last method is called the "best buy method". There is a long thread on slickdeals about this, but the gist of it is this. You order a new phone from bestbuy.com using your unlimited line's upgrade directly on itself. The best buy website will warn you that you will lose unlimited if you continue, and will have you proceed to choose a tiered data plan ($30/2GB). When the phone arrive do NOT turn it on. Take the sim card that comes inside the phone out and destroy it. Then all you need to do is put your old sim card into the new phone and you have a new phone with your unlimited data plan. This method works because third party companies do not have direct access to Verizon's system, and the activation of the sim cards they send out is what completes the process of telling Verizon that you have used your upgrade and chosen a new data plan. If the sim card is never used with that new device that plan change never happens.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#123
post #40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it's quite literally not fit for use. It's some completely fucked software rate limiting or something that produces insane packet loss, pages don't load at all, IRC barely works, ssh breaks up and dies. I don't mind being shaped to 5KB/s, but at least give me something resembling a consistent 5KB/s, not 12KB/s for two seconds and then 300 bytes/s (actual measurement) for the next half hour at 50%…

Are you talking about data above the 21GB limit on their "unlimited" plan or the 2G data you get after going above your data limits on the lower plans? I only pay for the 1GB plan but I haven't found it unusable when I go above that and I can buy a one-time increase if I like.

I'm on "Unlimited web" plan, but not 21GB.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#125

To put this into perspective: $100MM is 0.0759878% of AT&T's 2014 gross revenue, so less than 1/10th of 1%. That's like earning a $100,000/yr salary, and then paying a $75.99 fine. It's basically less than your average speeding ticket.

The penalty should be proportionate to the amount they got from the "unlimited plan" users since they started throttling. But consumers are unlikely to receive any money from the fine, which will go instead to the U.S. Treasury, said the agency official. Additionally, govt is getting money but what happens to the customers who actually paid for it?

Always seeing mega-corp gets fined millions and the people they wronged get nothing. Where do these fines go?

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#126
post #62
post #4

We should stop lawyers from re-defining words like unlimited. We should make sure that if somebody says unlimited in advertisment or product description it really means unlimited. I know, I am an idealist. :)

Well redefining words is pretty common these days, and quite popular too if it's for the politically correct reasons.

Politically correct is a pejorative term, you must use the word benevolent or words "socially progressive" /s.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#127
post #65
post #4

We should stop lawyers from re-defining words like unlimited. We should make sure that if somebody says unlimited in advertisment or product description it really means unlimited. I know, I am an idealist. :)

Depends what they're advertising as "unlimited". If it's unlimited broadband/internet, then it should actually be unlimited . On the other hand, if it's just unlimited data , then that says nothing about the speed. However, truth be told, my operator (3 in the UK) is pretty explicit that after 5GB or so (each month) the speed is reduced, and there is no unlimited (free) data when you're abroad.

Unlimited should mean limited only by the physics of the device. The limit should be determined by the bandwidth and the number of seconds in a month.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#128

To put this into perspective: $100MM is 0.0759878% of AT&T's 2014 gross revenue, so less than 1/10th of 1%. That's like earning a $100,000/yr salary, and then paying a $75.99 fine. It's basically less than your average speeding ticket.

Sure, though for perspective you should also mention that it's 1.6% of their profit (6.244 B$ last year). If this fine had been levied last year, it would have made their wireless numbers 12% worse (5.2% decline v.s. 4.7%). Fines are not about killing the company, they are about penalizing certain decisions made by the company to affect change in policies.

Who said anything about killing the company? If we break a contract, we pay for that mistake, unless we get away without anyone noticing (or have thousands of lawyers). We don't get to just lie to people and steal their money and then whine when somebody wants their money back (or fines are levied in response).

There were far more than 50 million wireless subscribers on AT&T during this period, myself being one of them. The damages to me were far greater than $2 during the period after this change occurred, not to mention the $350 I paid to get out of my renewed contract after realizing how useless my data plan was, in order to get my work done when I was on the move. Even if there were only 10 million customers on the unlimited plan and each customer was impacted in a manner that could be monetarily valued at $50 over a period of many years, that would amount to $500MM in damages.

The killing part comes next when this FCC decision holds up in a superior court, providing the common law grounds for a class-action lawsuit. That will be many hundreds of millions of dollars, and that's the real reason AT&T will appeal this.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#129
post #127
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what they're advertising as "unlimited". If it's unlimited broadband/internet, then it should actually be unlimited . On the other hand, if it's just unlimited data , then that says nothing about the speed. However, truth be told, my operator (3 in the UK) is pretty explicit that after 5GB or so (each month) the speed is reduced, and there is no unlimited (free) data when you're abroad.

Unlimited should mean limited only by the physics of the device. The limit should be determined by the bandwidth and the number of seconds in a month.

Yes, but the question is, unlimited what. You don't go to an "unlimited food" restaurant expecting unlimited drinks as well.

Re: AT&T fined $100M after slowing down its ‘unlimited’ data

#130
post #12

[Sorta OT...] Ugh, now we just need goad Comcast into improving their peering. It's pretty sad when the TV viewing experience is better via torrents than Netflix. Comcast is doing some serious throttling.... For me, the Netflix stream is all pixelated, yet we can pull the entire hour-long HD content via torrent in ~5 minutes. Something is amiss.

Comcast doesn't do any throttling, and have tons of interconnection, including direct connectivity with Netflix. http://corporate.comcast.com/news-information/news-feed/comc...

http://qz.com/256586/the-inside-story-of-how-netflix-came-to...
Post reply on HN