ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation • Hacker News Board

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#121

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:35 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #13

Reading the complaint, ADP is not likely come close to winning. The defamation they claimed happened is that Zenefits "alleged that ADP intentionally sought to cause harm to ADP’s clients solely to gain an unfair competitive advantage against Zenefits.” Even if you argue this is defamation per se (and not per quod), about a matter of private concern, they'd still have to prove "4. That [name of defendant] failed to u…

There's also a good chance that ADP will win. The reasonable cause comes down to the truth or falsity of all of the statements that Zenefits made in its original post, not just the ones that relate to the launching of a competitor.

Basically, Zenefits accuses ADP of blocking access solely because of a single traffic spike. On top of that, it accuses ADP of changing their reasons for cutting off Zenefit's access. They then accuse ADP of "spreading FUD"--and lying--about Zenefits for the purposes of quashing the competition.

That last statement, especially, is pretty dangerous under defamation law as it's pretty close per se defamation, in which case ADP would only have to prove the statement was made in court to win. There's no defense to that except proving that ADP was lying about Zenefits.

Based on what both parties have said, and what we know about how Zenefit's system actually works, a jury could definitely find that Zenefits defamed ADP and I would say, based on prior experience with juries, that there is at worst a 50/50 chance from ADP's perspective if this goes to trial.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#122

Post by larrys » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:35 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #13

Reading the complaint, ADP is not likely come close to winning. The defamation they claimed happened is that Zenefits "alleged that ADP intentionally sought to cause harm to ADP’s clients solely to gain an unfair competitive advantage against Zenefits.” Even if you argue this is defamation per se (and not per quod), about a matter of private concern, they'd still have to prove "4. That [name of defendant] failed to u…

"Reading the complaint, ADP is not likely come close to winning."

Maybe it's not about winning the lawsuit though. Could be about a PR play to show that ADP is serious enough about what they said prior to the lawsuit to follow it up with a lawsuit.

Could be about forcing the other side to take what they are asking them to do (retract) seriously and perhaps and take back the negative comments. And so on.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#123

Post by dmritard96 » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:36 PM UTC

Pretty surprised all these savvy investors that do due diligence before investing didn't see Zenefits' reliance on ADP as a gigantic risk. With 500M you should be able to build a better ADP to some degree but still, makes me wonder how much independent thinking goes on in the VC world right now. Feels like a company with a YC stamp of approval getting a free pass in the valley. Anyhow, I hope its sorted out as I actually really like the tenants of Zenpayroll.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#124

Post by larrys » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:37 PM UTC

ghayes wrote: post #114

dang wrote: post #106

Two articles on this were at the top of the front page. Since we don't need two, we buried https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9693370 as a dupe. That's not entirely fair, since the other link contains Zenefits' response, but anyone who wants to can go read it. Since we have to pick one it seems best to keep the third-party article.

Thank you for the transparency of your decision. It's always welcome from the community.

Agree and even better would be that type of information under the story header so anyone who was following the thread knows that it has been closed and the reason as well.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#125

Post by healthnetwork » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #117

healthnetwork wrote: post #101

The health insurance and benefits industry needs innovation, badly, but as one person said on this thread, don't bite the hand that feeds you. The Hub and Spoke model that Parker often refers to will not work if you are too aggressive with trying to force (your version) of change on these companies you have no choice to work with in some capacity. Disruption is one thing, destruction is another. There's a lot of focu…

The WSJ reported this morning that many startups (and distrubingly, many HN-backed startups) are using fuzzy math when it comes to reporting financials. Generally, they're using non-GAAP measures that they "feel" better reflects their "growth" and "income potential" rather than actual financial measures that everyone else uses. I wouldn't be surprised if the "10,000+" businesses included prospective businesses, compa…

You have a link to that WSJ article?

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#126

Post by borski » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #106

Two articles on this were at the top of the front page. Since we don't need two, we buried https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9693370 as a dupe. That's not entirely fair, since the other link contains Zenefits' response, but anyone who wants to can go read it. Since we have to pick one it seems best to keep the third-party article.

I was actually really concerned when I saw the other one had been buried, and was worried HN was going to turn into a "do not slam our companies" love-fest. I'm glad you're being so transparent, and even happier about the fact that legitimate controversy still gets to be played out and discussed.

Thanks.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#127

Post by borski » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:43 PM UTC

geori wrote: post #67

randall wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever had an insurance broker before? They're like the same thing but without the easy software.

Your local insurance salesperson probably has less bargaining power than Zenefits, so your rates with them could be higher.

We got cheaper rates with a 'boutique' insurance firm that was smaller. You can get even cheaper by going the PEO route, but we decided that wasn't a route we wanted to go down.

Zenefits does not get any special deals; you get the same deal as every other 'small business' broker.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#128

Post by pbreit » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #106

Two articles on this were at the top of the front page. Since we don't need two, we buried https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9693370 as a dupe. That's not entirely fair, since the other link contains Zenefits' response, but anyone who wants to can go read it. Since we have to pick one it seems best to keep the third-party article.

De-duping like this seems unnecessary. I'd prefer to see do-nothing bias. No explanations or artificial manipulation needed. Just let the threads compete. Like life.

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#129

Post by pbreit » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:52 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #13

Reading the complaint, ADP is not likely come close to winning. The defamation they claimed happened is that Zenefits "alleged that ADP intentionally sought to cause harm to ADP’s clients solely to gain an unfair competitive advantage against Zenefits.” Even if you argue this is defamation per se (and not per quod), about a matter of private concern, they'd still have to prove "4. That [name of defendant] failed to u…

Seems like lawsuit is the only way we'll find out the truth. I'm not inclined to believe Zenefits at this point. Was it really scraping ADP rather than using the normal integration methods made available to all brokers?

Re: ADP Sues Zenefits for Defamation

#130

Post by pbreit » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #104

DannyBee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the blog post i just posted. In fact, ADP launched a competing products, just as zynamics said they were going to. This is good enough for reasonable care. :) Even if it wasn't, ADP would have to prove that Zynamics didn't bother to do any investigation at all before making the statement (IE not quite negligence, but at least something) This seems "highly unlikely" given the situation.

That's what I was looking for, thanks. The announcement of a competing product looks really bad for ADP; if Zenefits had advance notice of it, I can see why they'd make the moves they made.

What a stupid email the ADP rep sent out!