Software Is Eating the Job Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#121

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 6:52 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #85

mason240 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't socialism at all. The main tenants of socialism are ending profit and private property. UBI embraces the same kind of capitalism we have now with private property and profit. In order to say that UBI is socialist, you also have to be calling Social Security socialism, and you have to think that President Obama is a socialist. I think you would find a lot more support among conservatives than you think (it…

UBI is absolutely a kind of socialism; it may embrace the same kind of 'capitalism' we have now, only in that what we have now and sometimes call 'capitalism' is a system which blends many elements of socialism with some structures of capitalism in an attempt to address the kind of problems with capitalism that were the center of the critique by the socialists who named "capitalism" as a thing while at the same time…

I think the fact that the use and disposition of the "superficially privately-held capital" is determined by individual private entities is actually fairly significant, even if they're losing a cut of the revenues. It strikes me as similar to the way in which paying taxes on our labor does not make us "slaves". Whether the lack, in this sense, of "state control of the means of production" is enough to make it "not Socialism" seems to be something people could reasonably disagree about.

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#122

Post by juliangregorian » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 7:25 AM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #101

juliangregorian wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it was true for East India, it was true for Standard Oil, and it's still true today. Much of regulation was intended for the protection of consumers, not to cement incumbents, and the subversion of the same is evidence of capitalism's predatory nature.

Businesses continue their regulatory capture in the US. The line between corporations and government grows thinner every time a burdensome regulation is created that only companies with significant resources can follow. http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/060815-756320-domin...

Of course they do. This is not unique in history or in the US. This is simply capitalism working as intended.

What did you think Tesla would do after they finished "destroying the major auto manufacturers"?

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#123

Post by juliangregorian » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 9:33 AM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #120

juliangregorian wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economics 101. Both parties are supposed to gain additional utility from any trade. I'll wait while you do the math.

Both parties are supposed to gain additional utility from any trade or it doesn't happen . That's not to say that both parties gain utility from any trade that could be made (obviously), and there's nothing that implies an infinitude - just a difference in how much people value different things. Of course, past Econ 101, we also get into issues of people making trades they think will be beneficial but aren't.

Alright, we have an economist here. So the bank makes you a loan and they expect you to pay it back with interest. Where is that extra capital supposed to come from?

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#124

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:21 PM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #63

s73v3r wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the political landscape today, we need a different solution. That's basically socialism (something I don't have a problem with), and I'm sure you've seen how well things with even the hint of socialism have gone over in the US. Most Tea Partiers would be completely happy to have things turn out Hunger Games style, as they're assuming that they'd be on top, rather than having to send their child in to fight.

This isn't socialism at all. The main tenants of socialism are ending profit and private property. UBI embraces the same kind of capitalism we have now with private property and profit. In order to say that UBI is socialist, you also have to be calling Social Security socialism, and you have to think that President Obama is a socialist. I think you would find a lot more support among conservatives than you think (it…

Something actually being socialism or not has never stopped those on the right from rallying against it. All they'll hear is taxes and people getting money, and they'll be all against it.

>I think you would find a lot more support among conservatives than you think (it seems like you have quite the caricature of them).

I don't. And it's not a caricature when based on statements they've actually made. Remember Mitt Romney's 47%?

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#125

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:22 PM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #81

chadgeidel wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In order to say that UBI is socialist, you also have to be calling Social Security socialism, and you have to think that President Obama is a socialist." And that's exactly what the Tea Party types are saying.

So you agree with them?

You don't have to agree with them to know that's what they'll say, and that they do have a number of people following them.

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#126

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:27 PM UTC

int3 wrote: post #76

sanderjd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But education isn't what you need to be an experienced worker, you need experience . I think the parent's point is a great one, and would add to it that things are headed toward a glut of well-educated but nonetheless inexperienced people.

Fair enough. But experience can be garnered outside companies, and the Internet is making that easier, too: OSS development, nonprofit / pro bono work, etc.

How does nonprofit/pro bono work help when you're trying to eat?

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#127

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:33 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #55

int3 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting points. > The problem is that we are eating entry-level jobs, and in turn, creating an artificial scarce supply of "experienced" workers. On the other hand, it is easier than ever to get cheap, basic education in a variety of things, with the Internet and MOOCs making information widely available. So entry-level jobs may be less necessary these days. On the other hand, it means the people who can afford t…

That's assuming there's any incentive to pursue that free education. A large segment of the population has no interest in working save for the fact that if they don't they'll starve; these are not self-motivated people who seek out academic pursuits in their spare time. Entry-level jobs are absolutely necessary, first for learning to get to work on time daily , then for the job-specific education needed to work up to…

The entire point is that automation is taking away those entry level jobs. Without those, people aren't going to be able to get a foothold into the workforce, and won't be able to become productive members of society.

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#128

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:38 PM UTC

spanktheuser wrote: post #61

fixermark wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where that leaves the job market, given that there will still be a need for these roles in the future (and plenty of incentive for someone to learn the roles via whatever means become available). Are unpaid internships a symptom of this flow perhaps? They read a lot like apprenticeships (but with a significant burden of responsibility missing).

Interesting anecdote: at a devbootcamp event, I ran into two high school graduates who skipped a traditional bachelor's in favor of three months of intensive web development training followed by a year of unpaid internships. They evaluated this as considerably less expensive than a university education while providing a comparable level of experience. I'm not sure I agree, but it's interesting that very young people…

Only those who's family is already relatively well off, and who live in an area where these types of work are available can really do it, though. That's not a reasonable solution.

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#129

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

kfk wrote: post #58

So, when we came up with agriculture some millenia ago, all those jobless people, those hunters/explorers/etc., did not stay jobless, did they? What about when we came up with machines in the 19th century? All those people in agriculture would still be jobless, but they are not, are they? Point is, every technological innovation will be absorbed in the long term. It's been historically this way for millennia, at leas…

Except when robots take the jobs, what jobs are left? Especially in the entry level?

Re: Software Is Eating the Job Market

#130

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #46

mason240 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal Basic Income is the best post-labor system I've read of. Everything is still based on the same capitalism we have now, and the ~20% of people who work will still be able to make income (meaning there will still be incentive for enterprise).

Except you'll have increasing encroachment on motivation of the productive. When Ronald Reagan was a top-billed Hollywood actor, he faced a ~90% tax bracket. Rather than work hard only to see most of his earnings confiscated, he'd make just a few movies and then enjoy those profits instead of spending time on diminishing returns. Same for plenty of us motivated ones: if 80% are living off the 20%, that will require t…

"When Ronald Reagan was a top-billed Hollywood actor, he faced a ~90% tax bracket. Rather than work hard only to see most of his earnings confiscated, he'd make just a few movies and then enjoy those profits instead of spending time on diminishing returns."

Is that what happened? Or did he simply realize that he had enough, and he didn't need to work himself to death to have all the money? Seriously, what's wrong with people realizing they have enough, and don't need to overwork themselves just to have more?