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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#121

Post by ZeroGravitas »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

Asking someone to turn out their pockets and then arresting them because some marijuana is now "publicly displayed" is as close to "no reason" as you're going to get.

Also, if the father is absent, maybe it's because he's in jail, like some scary number of people in the US? Maybe he can't get employment, because he's a felon, like a scary number of people in the US?

The person you replied to is right, ending the war on drugs makes a lot of things, including all the things you list, better. It's a great place to start.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#122

Post by rmxt »

ChrisArgyle wrote: post #89
Bostonian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

There's no way to advance a discussion by simply stating there is a correlation between crime and race. What solutions come from that? Genocide? Internment? Crime is a complex system that involves more than just the two axes race and violence.

The racists and/or "human biodiversity" types have come out to play. Better to ignore the disingenuous comments and move on, as they tend not to be here for discussion. Articles on race and crime often draw out these sorts of "arguments".

For those that actually believe the GP might have some ground to stand on, the least they could do is to link to some sources or resources.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#123

Post by lasermike026 »

So when get over the depression of observing this system in action and the desire to leave the US I feel the desire for action. This problem of over criminalizing and over incarceration must be reversed and corrected. I refuse to live in a country like this unless this is corrected.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#124

Post by dismal2 »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

The war on drugs is directly related to what you are talking about.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#125

Post by dragonwriter »

Bostonian wrote: post #72
ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

> Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class.

Some of that is racism in crime reporting and law enforcement behind the stats, and some if it is a real disparity, and at least some of that real disparity -- perhaps all of it -- results from the fact that black people in the US come from a cultural which has very different attitudes due to a very different experience with authority historically, with de jure discrimination and overt police repression of the black community extending into living memory (and even stronger farther back where it still exerts considerable cultural influence), which has a considerable impact on attitudes towards institutions of authority and the broader society.

Piling more racism by the broader society on top of that is not going to alleviate that problem.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#126

Post by smtddr »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

>>But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty.

I'd say that institutionalize/systemic racism in America makes it exceedingly more likely that a minority will end up poor and exceedingly more difficult to get out of ---> poor neighborhoods --> more crime ---> broken window policy ---> problems we've been seeing recently.

Conversely, a rich kid in a wealthy neighborhood(that probably doesn't have police at every corner) could be smoking weed right now. Nobody will notice/care, and even if they did some millionaire parents will make sure things work out for the best. And we know the general demographics of rich neighborhoods. It's not that only minorities commit crimes, but the police are always heavily more present where minorities are often located. It's death of a thousand paper-cuts. Housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, poor neighborhoods with horrid schools, war on drugs, excessive police presence/force. Then when they end up poor & desperate, the police are right there waiting for them to step out of line. "See?! We got him committing a crime!" ...without understanding everything in America that led to the event. And when the police jail/kill these people(often black men), you've potential just taken a father away from a family and there's now a young child without a father... and the cycle almost unavoidably continues.

The war on drugs has been a huge driver of this cycle. End it and I think we will see a change for the better. Won't solve everything, but it'll be significant improvement.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#127

Post by tcfunk »

Bostonian wrote: post #61
pessimizer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

African-American males are 0.25% of the world's population, but 10% of the world's prisoners.

Black men also commit violent crimes at much higher rates than the rest of the population. Most people are in jail for a good reason. I suggest reading a recent essay "The Smart Way to Keep People Out of Prison" by Megan McArdle.

Unfortunately, this is almost certainly a result of institutional racism through America's history. NPR has an pretty interesting interview regarding this:

http://www.npr.org/2015/05/14/406699264/historian-says-dont-...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#128

Post by Steuard »

Bostonian wrote: post #72
ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

I knew quite a few people in college who used illegal drugs, some of them pretty regularly. (I doubt that I'm the only person for whom that's true.) That is crime.

To my knowledge, not one of them were ever investigated, searched, arrested, prosecuted, or convicted of a crime. (Well, there was that one guy who had a close call at a border crossing on a trip to Amsterdam.) I can't think of any way in which their behavior would be reflected in formal criminal statistics. But let's not pretend that "crime" of this sort is not rampant among white students on college campuses around the country.

A large fraction of the point here is that criminal statistics reflect who our society chooses to enforce its laws upon.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#129

Post by moomin »

ctdonath wrote: post #115
lars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

Indeed, the City of Ferguson's finances relied on the regular fining of its poorest citizens. Basically backdoor taxation.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#130

Post by fomojola »

CPLX wrote: post #77
pyre wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only. The War on Drugs is a jobs program. What will all those newly out of work people do? What will all of those local police departments do without the 'easy' money from the government? (I realize that some of them don't need the extra funding and just use it to buy 'toys,' but I'm sure there are other to count on it in their budget) I'm not saying that it shouldn't end. I'm saying that it is not "as simple as i…

I think it's important in policy discussions to distinguish "simple" and "easy" as concepts. Needless to say, it would not be easy to end and unravel the drug war. As a concept and goal, however, it is a simple decision. > What will all of those local police departments do without the 'easy' money from the government? Perhaps they could attempt to solve and prevent crimes involving violence and fraudulent behavior, w…

Only mildly related, but this is a massively underrated point: all too many people conflate "simple" and "easy", not just here but in many other things.
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