Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance • Hacker News Board

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#121

Post by treetoppin » Wed, May 20, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

random28345 wrote: post #106

treetoppin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…

> I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically I also think these MRIs that show the spead of cancer have done tremendous damage to the body medically.

I can see how it would be easy to read my post as a judgement as to whether the Snowden leaks were worth it, but I wasn't trying to make that point. If I was to rephrase my original comment using your analogy, I would say it something like this.

"The doctor who used chemotherapy to remove the cancer in America's body has caused spillover damage to other organ systems, but this course of action was only necessary because recommendations in the early stage of the disease to remove the tumor before it spread were ignored. When we ignore the warning signs early on it forces subsequent treatments to be far more indiscriminate"

Hopefully that clarifies

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#122

Post by csbrooks » Wed, May 20, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

treetoppin wrote: post #120

spacehome wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. Could you expand on why you think this? From my perspective, what's caused tremendous damage is the way U.S. agencies have acted. I'd like these policies to at minimum be up for a…

Absolutely. Ill clarify here and state that I think what the US government was doing was wrong, and that by uncovering the illegal (in my mind, though there is some debate about this point) activities of our spy agencies the world is better off. Of course, leaking the information could not have happened if the original programs had never existed, but the leaks were the proximate cause for the damage to the U.S. geopo…

Are you holding Snowden responsible for the New York Times' failure to properly redact documents?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#123

Post by treetoppin » Wed, May 20, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #99

treetoppin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically, and I think the manner in which he is releasing the documents has elements of narcissism and carelessness in regards to the sensitivity of the information. That being said, Snowden probably would not have absconded with this massive trove of information if the US gove…

>I tend to dislike the hero/villain dichotomy that is usually held up. I think the Snowden leaks have caused tremendous damage to the US geopolitically If I report someone for a crime and they are arrested, is the damage to their life my fault or their own?

I see the point you are trying to make, but the analogy misses some nuance. A question that captures more of the muddiness of this is "If I find out someone is committing a crime and I prove it by indiscriminately publishing their emails, is the embarrassment that is created when it is revealed they were having an affair my fault or their own?"

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#124

Post by treetoppin » Wed, May 20, 2015, 3:36 PM UTC

csbrooks wrote: post #122

treetoppin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Ill clarify here and state that I think what the US government was doing was wrong, and that by uncovering the illegal (in my mind, though there is some debate about this point) activities of our spy agencies the world is better off. Of course, leaking the information could not have happened if the original programs had never existed, but the leaks were the proximate cause for the damage to the U.S. geopo…

Are you holding Snowden responsible for the New York Times' failure to properly redact documents?

Who gave the documents to the NYT? Obviously this is a failure on the part of the NYT, but given that Snowden talks about how security conscious he is then he should bear at least some of the responsibility for not controlling the release.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#125

Post by jellicle » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:00 PM UTC

ikeboy wrote: post #41

hobs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that you think it is more complicated than that, but I don't think it is. Do you remember what happened with Chelsea Manning? Because that is what the GP is referring to. When you get put in military prison, they basically get to do whatever they want to you.

But Manning was in the military when he got access to the stuff he leaked.

What are you trying to say? That Snowden wouldn't end in Fort Leavenworth? You are correct. Snowden would end up in ADX Florence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

I'm not sure how that is an improvement.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#126

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:17 PM UTC

treetoppin wrote: post #124

csbrooks wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you holding Snowden responsible for the New York Times' failure to properly redact documents?

Who gave the documents to the NYT? Obviously this is a failure on the part of the NYT, but given that Snowden talks about how security conscious he is then he should bear at least some of the responsibility for not controlling the release.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150518/13193831041/us-of...

And when other people leak far more relevant information? (by topic and by time)

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#127

Post by ionised » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:22 PM UTC

dimino wrote: post #32

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

I get the impression that the general population doesn't actually fully understand what the government has done.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#128

Post by ionised » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #43

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

> Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain? I see him as neither hero nor villain. He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to mak…

> For instance, leaking how the US is spying on foreign nations, which is the whole reason for the NSA to exist.

As a non-US citizen I wholeheartedly thank Snowden for doing this, as it also shed light on the threat to me from the US (NSA) and from my own UK government (GCHQ).

There is nothing I could ever think badly of him for in this situation.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#129

Post by toyg » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

csandreasen wrote: post #84

toyg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> implying that anyone's router might be intercepted and backdoored - maybe even your own! But that's exactly the point -- it could be . We now know that a body with almost no oversight not just can but does backdoor US-produced equipment. This is not conspiracy-theory territory anymore, it's hard fact and anyone making decisions on procurement from now on will have to deal with it, not just "hard targets" -- because…

Yes, it could be done, just like the police could go door-to-door shooting everyone they see. They have guns, after all. The military could take over the White House if a presidential candidate is elected that the Joint Chiefs of Staff don't like. None of these things are actually happening, though...

The difference is that police and military have very well-defined protocols for oversight, carried out mostly in the open, with multiple authorities being involved and clear chains of responsibility. If a policeman shoots an unarmed man, there will be investigations and trials, and somebody will have to say why it happened as it did (maybe the policeman, maybe his bosses, maybe a mayor, etc). Punishment may or may not happen, but there will be a process carried out mostly in the open.

For the NSA, that's not the case. Do you think cracking Google networks and the likes were "legitimate actions"? Who decided about that? Why did they need to do it, considering Google was already cooperating? Why did they lie about what they were doing even to the authorities they supposedly answer to? They basically dished "network brutality" with impunity, and now there is no process to hold anyone accountable.

With the NSA, we now know that what they "could" do, they actually did do, and unlike all those other corps, now there is no way to hold anyone accountable.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#130

Post by treetoppin » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #126

treetoppin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gave the documents to the NYT? Obviously this is a failure on the part of the NYT, but given that Snowden talks about how security conscious he is then he should bear at least some of the responsibility for not controlling the release.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150518/13193831041/us-of... And when other people leak far more relevant information? (by topic and by time)

I wasn't talking about whether other leaks have been more damaging, I was talking specifically about the lack of nuance contained in the Edward Snowden hero/villain dichotomy.

We can talk about the White House's absolutely shameful wrist slapping of Petraeus, or the leaks mentioned in the article you source, but that still doesn't address whether Snowden messed up when he facilitated the NYT in releasing unredacted information. Just because hypocrisy exists doesnt mean that anytime we critique someone we have to also bring out a laundry list of other people who messed up even worse.