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I was an undercover Uber driver

citypaper.net

121–130 of 170 posts

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#121
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I realised a lot of these Uber drivers (usually migrants with broken English) probably didn't have many other options to earn money. This is just such a perfect observation. What we are seeing here is an end-run around the minimum wage. The so-called "1099 economy" is increasing employment of unskilled workers who would otherwise be unemployable at the mandatory minimum. Where else are people going to find a job th…

The article mentions several times that expected wage post-expenses is around $10 per hour, not $5. That difference is material.

You're right, the article claims OP had 1099 earnings of $9.34/hour assuming expenses of $0.51 per paid mile. But then also goes on to note that other driver's expenses were more like $0.70 per paid mile.

I wonder if she amortized that $100 of tire damage in that $0.51 / mile! Also, what about the unpaid miles getting to a fare in the first place, or getting back home after a fare takes you off the beaten path? I think it's extremely difficult to fully account for all time and expenses in that line of work. Finally, subtract another 7.6% off the top for 1099 vs W2.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#122
post #110

A few months ago when I was in Seattle for work, I caught Uber everywhere. I had so many conversations with Uber drivers about why they drove for Uber, how much money they made and why they weren't doing something else. Needless to say, unless I felt legitimately fearful for my life (which rarely ever happened) I would always rate 5 stars. I realised a lot of these Uber drivers (usually migrants with broken English)…

> I realised a lot of these Uber drivers (usually migrants with broken English) probably didn't have many other options to earn money. This is just such a perfect observation. What we are seeing here is an end-run around the minimum wage. The so-called "1099 economy" is increasing employment of unskilled workers who would otherwise be unemployable at the mandatory minimum. Where else are people going to find a job th…

> If the minimum wage weren't so damn high ...

It's about where it was 50 years ago, measured in real dollars: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/12/04/5-facts-abou...

By other measurements, it's relatively low: http://www.cepr.net/publications/reports/the-minimum-wage-is...

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#123
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions several times that expected wage post-expenses is around $10 per hour, not $5. That difference is material.

You're right, the article claims OP had 1099 earnings of $9.34/hour assuming expenses of $0.51 per paid mile. But then also goes on to note that other driver's expenses were more like $0.70 per paid mile. I wonder if she amortized that $100 of tire damage in that $0.51 / mile! Also, what about the unpaid miles getting to a fare in the first place, or getting back home after a fare takes you off the beaten path? I thi…

She also pointed out that her take-home was lower than that of the other drivers she checked against because she did not take full advantage of surge pricing and other "tricks" of experienced drivers. And she pointed out that some drivers' expenses were less than her $0.51.

I suspect $10/hr is a fairly reasonable average. The discussion is interesting enough even without needing to exaggerate that number.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How magnanimous of you, to award imaginary points instead of enough money to support somebody. I think Uber is great for a certain subset of people. While most people who frequent HN on six figure tech salaries would definitely struggle to live on an Uber salary Seriously? I guess it's good for you guys so you only have to spend half of what it costs. Oh, and for the Uber owners of course. A certain subset of people,…

Ouch. That hurts. You have taken such a small part of what I have said and used it to paint me as someone who is taking advantage of the fact that Uber offers cheaper fares than a taxi service. And then to add salt to injury, you throw in that last line. While I agree somewhat with your point, your comment was just plain rude. There are so many other ways you could have said what you wanted to say without launching a…

First off, I agree. It was rude and when I wrote it I was in a bad mood in general. I think the ensuing discussion is definitely worth my karma hit; I'm a little bit sorry that you had to receive that aggressiveness, but reading your response I have hope it's ok.

What I felt when I read your post, and wrote my response, was not so much about you as about an attitude that I'm fed up with, which is basically "I can see how this system isn't working out, but I'm participating anyway because it treats me pretty good". And as you say, and others in this thread, there is something - an ideology, a rationalization or a truth - which excuses if not condones this.

I don't buy that coffee, I brew my own, and always buy eco and fairtrade. I know and agree that this isn't really working out either, but it's a start, and a "market signal" or whatever. Thing is, I've been to those coffee and cocoa plantations and guess what - things aren't working out for the people working there, either.

When it comes to the electronics, I'm painfully aware of the fact that the rare minerals are often mined by actual slaves, under gunpoint. What is probably the worst war since WWII is basically about minerals for smartphones, it's in The Congo[1] and has claimed millions of lives. All the while some of the world's wealthiest people are laughing and smiling about their billion dollar profits. So I don't get a new phone all the time. I have a Geeksphone Peak, for the record. Still, it needs cobalt and coltan and tin which might well have been mined by children, literally with their hands.

What javert says about choosing to work there just isn't that simple. What branchless says further down the thread is; it's about access to land. And those people working factories in China were removed from their land in agricultural reforms. It's a political thing and it has happened all over the world; see e.g. The Enclosure[2] in Britain.

This isn't simple at all, but since it's a market economy where all decisions are ultimately made by the "consumer", which is us in the context of this discussion, we have to make the right choices. And if we have the information, we can't just disregard that with "hey, at least it's a job". That's what bothers me the most about this; a lot of people just don't have the information to make the right choices. If the people who have the information, and the wealth, to make better choices don't, then we're doomed.

I realize how this will come through all high and mighty, but I think it's worth it to get a clear message across. The idea behind the market economy is that we organize ourselves according to every individual decision. In that case, it's up to everyone to make the best choice, using all available information. You can't have the cake and eat it.

If you don't agree with how Uber operates as a company, don't do business with them.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congolese_Civil_War

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Edit: Spelling.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#125
post #32
post #2

I also drove for Uber in DC for a few months while I was between jobs. I thought it would be a fun and easy way to get a few dollars for beer. My experience mirrors that of the reporter. Towards the end, I would only drive during surge pricing hours, as that was the only way to make a reasonable net hourly wage. I have no problem hailing an Uber - they are really, really cheap. However, it's a raw deal for drivers. U…

> It has to So basically you mean than Uber can only make money if most their drivers do not respect the law. Which gives Uber an unfair advantage over the competition (regular taxis that do respect the law ). It's like saying employer X doesn't check if his employees are legal workers, because if he did it would be too expensive to do business. But hey, even startups got to hussle to make a good living.

Uber can only make money if most their drivers do not respect the law is an assumption. Keep in mind that Uber evades the cost of a medallion, which the article says runs $420-460 per week in Philly. That eliminates $1700+ per month of cost that effectively goes to the banks that fund loans on these assets. I don't see much social good in that.

Uber may additionally benefit from regulatory arbitrage, but it is not obvious that their business requires it.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#126

A few months ago when I was in Seattle for work, I caught Uber everywhere. I had so many conversations with Uber drivers about why they drove for Uber, how much money they made and why they weren't doing something else. Needless to say, unless I felt legitimately fearful for my life (which rarely ever happened) I would always rate 5 stars. I realised a lot of these Uber drivers (usually migrants with broken English)…

> Aside: Anyone else find the article sporadically refresh? Made it very difficult to read the article. Yes. It did for me in Firefox on the desktop, but not on mobile safari. I thought I was crazy when it did it the first time but the second time, I knew it was the citypaper site.

Must be to boost their ad impressions. Really scummy, and kept interrupting the embedded Uber training video.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#127
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a guess but I'd place money on "because that's the best way they can think of to increase advert impressions". I've known publishers do that for this reason, at least. Depressingly.

And yet I have adblock on, so the only thing they're accomplishing is making me not read the whole article. There's enough irony in that to cure every case of anemia worldwide.

Use no-script (FF) or script-safe (chrome). It never reloaded on me.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How magnanimous of you, to award imaginary points instead of enough money to support somebody. I think Uber is great for a certain subset of people. While most people who frequent HN on six figure tech salaries would definitely struggle to live on an Uber salary Seriously? I guess it's good for you guys so you only have to spend half of what it costs. Oh, and for the Uber owners of course. A certain subset of people,…

The entire economic system is built around people trying to get the best deal possible for themselves. You can try and paint that as inhumane and abusive if you're commited to emotionalising economic dynamics, but it really doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day as long as the transactions are consensual, there's no need for this rhetoric of abuse. Uber drivers know the deal and they can take it or leave it. N…

> The entire economic system is built around people trying to get the best deal possible for themselves ...

Getting the best deal possible is one factor, but it's not the only one, it's not dogma, and it doesn't justify bad behavior.

I think your post is a simplified approach to a complex world. For example, it assumes that the marketplace is free and fair, which it clearly is not. The powerful often use their power to prevent competition, or even to write the rules (via influence in government) of the 'free' competition. Also, profiting from others' suffering is wrong.

Finally, our economic system, while good relative to most in human history, could be greatly improved. Let's not allow a dogmatic idea that it is ideal stop us from getting better. For one thing, it could be made more free and more fair.

> it's not Uber or anyone else's job or responsibility to guarantee anyone or anybody a certain standard of living.

I strongly disagree. We all have responsibilities to our communities and society; if people didn't meet those responsibilities, the communities and society would fall apart. Those who don't do their part are parasites on those who do, in my humble opinion.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#129
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is completely irrelevant. The "its voluntary" thing means absolutely nothing.

It's not really voluntary if you can either accept a crappy, abusive job or starve to death. People purposefully creating such conditions are doing something incredibly evil to other human beings. Having to "choose" at a gunpoint would probably be more humane.

So Uber came to give them an option beyond "starve to death"? Seems like they should be praised even more.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#130
post #69
post #2

I also drove for Uber in DC for a few months while I was between jobs. I thought it would be a fun and easy way to get a few dollars for beer. My experience mirrors that of the reporter. Towards the end, I would only drive during surge pricing hours, as that was the only way to make a reasonable net hourly wage. I have no problem hailing an Uber - they are really, really cheap. However, it's a raw deal for drivers. U…

maybe the insurance industry could innovate and solve this problem

https://www.geico.com/getaquote/ridesharing/
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