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Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

economist.com

121–130 of 252 posts

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#121
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> In Russia drug addicts were (and still are, to lesser extent) responsible for very large if not largest portion of crime, especially burglary and theft ... So, don't dismiss parent comment so easily. My issues with the parent comment are not that addicts never steal, it's the ignorance of lumping all drug use into the same category and then saying 'drugs' make you steal. It's the same in the UK - addicts of one so…

> It's the same in the UK - addicts of one sort or another do disproportionately make up the crime figures. Yes, the inference only goes in that direction...

'xactly!

That's a succinct way of summing it up :)

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#122
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Russia drug addicts were (and still are, to lesser extent) responsible for very large if not largest portion of crime, especially burglary and theft. And usage isn't punishable here, only distribution. So, don't dismiss parent comment so easily. This would likely not be the case if cocaine cost about the same, or even ten times as much as sugar. The high price of drugs is a direct result of laws against their prod…

I don't know, making hard drugs easily available in the country with large number of people living in poverty could end up not too good... I think we should dig history more on that, China and opium comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_opium_in_China I agree that war on drugs can't be won because of economical reasons, though.

Perhaps not making (very) addictive drugs easily and cheaply available to the general population, but making them easily available to registered addicts, who can get some counselling but also be provided a cheap/free fix so they don't need to steal to get more.

The cost to society would be far less.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. It is amazing that so many people have no issue with losing control mentally under the influence of alcohol and those same people think it is scary that I would like to try LSD.

Normal alcohol dosage doesn't lead to massive loss of control

Nearly all of my drug related regrets were under the influence of alcohol.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. It is amazing that so many people have no issue with losing control mentally under the influence of alcohol and those same people think it is scary that I would like to try LSD.

Normal alcohol dosage doesn't lead to massive loss of control

Normal or small dosage of LSD also doesn't lead to loss of control. Personally, even a big dosage has never lead to massive loss of control.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#125
post #56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speeding is also a victimless crime until an accident happens. I don't have a strong opinion about this, I'm just saying it's more complicated than victimless crime, war that cannot be won, etc. For each such talking point there's a counter-point. What will actually happen once you legalize a given substance I don't know. The article I linked to has a lot of arguments against legalization, which, judging by the comme…

>>The article I linked to has a lot of arguments against legalization, which, judging by the comments, the commenters didn't bother to skim through. It's a long article, and it contains ungrounded assertions like this - "Addiction to, or regular use of, most currently prohibited drugs cannot affect only the person who takes them—and not his spouse, children, neighbors, or employers." This is ... well it's just wrong.…

> Many people regularly use alcohol in moderation, there's no reason to think that regular, moderate use of cannabis and various other currently illegal drugs would be any worse when alcohol has one of the worst harm and addiction profiles of any drug.

This argument always seems a bit silly to me.

Perhaps these people oppose legalization in part because they don't want more drugs to be as common and socially acceptable as alcohol and all the evils that come with it, and simply regard alcohol and tobacco use as a largely lost cause. This argument is common and it always frames the issue as if the person is 100% pro-alcohol.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#126
post #26

I'm surprised they don't also cite the first war against drugs (actualy, a drug) - prohibition. Exactly the same scenario played out then as is, hopefully, coming to it's inevitable conclusion now in the 'western hemisphere'. If the same thing is starting up again in the East, it's going to be a bloody and chaotic few decades to come before the same lesson gets learned the third time over. Fortunately we do have a la…

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful. It is amazing that so many people have no issue with losing control mentally under the influence of alcohol and those same people think it is scary that I would like to try LSD.

I don't understand why the campaigns against alcohol have been so unsuccessful.

Alcohol is very easy to manufacture in secret.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#127
post #105
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong. It shakes your belief systems, specially if you built your character around some facts like these and they stuck with you for the better part of your life. You have to consider that core beliefs like this influenced many decisions in life. People actually thinking about that they were perhaps wrong is more painful that blindl…

>>Facts don't work on some people because their ego doesn't let them to admit they were wrong.

It's not about ego. It's about emotions. In this case, she is fearful of something that she doesn't understand, and has made a decision ("marijuana is bad!") based on that fear. Logic is not going to overcome that fear. She has to start associating marijuana with positive feelings first before she opens up to changing her mind.

This isn't gender-specific either. Most people, whether they are men or women, operate like this: they feel an emotion, associate it with the thing/person that caused that emotion, and then make decisions based on that emotion. They use logic only for post-hoc justification.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#128
post #31

It's not often that I have the opportunity to feel proud of the legislators in my home country, but Portugal has been on the leading edge of drug prevention and rehabilitation since we moved from a "war on drugs" to a program of health risk prevention and removed the weight of criminal charges and proceedings from the equation. Some interesting articles below: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-de…

I Heart Portugal. It is my understanding that Portugal couldn't go as far as they would have liked due to trade agreements with the U.S. Do you know if that is true?

From what I can remember, the original plan had some provisions for "assisted usage rooms" where trained personal would help guarantee that needles were clean and offer assistance to reduce ODs, but this never made it into the law because.

I can't be sue if US political influence had any weight on the final legislation, I mean, it would not be unheard of but on the other hand it would not be a matter of public record either.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#129
post #59
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some sort of taboo on getting high for whatever reason. I have asked a few people opposed to drugs why they were opposed to drugs and their answers were mostly health related i.e. Cannabis gives you psychosis so you shouldn’t smoke it. I then ask if, hypothetically, there was a drug developed which produces intense happiness for one hour but had no side effects, caused no long term damage and was to…

I once had a conversation about cannabis with my mother that went along these lines. I told her I'd smoked it a few times, she was shocked, I asked what her concerns were. Over the next half an hour or so I patiently and factually answered all of them. She had clearly been sold fully on the propaganda and had thought, amongst other things, that one puff of weed smoke could potentially kill you if you were unlucky. An…

> Anyway, at the end of this I said "so what do you think about the law now, seems pretty stupid huh?" and she said that no, she still thought it should be illegal because it was just bad, regardless. Facts just don't work on some people.

I understand your point here but I don't think that's the case. I think what we're seeing here is someone who has legitimately been brainwashed. To be clear as I do not intend to offend, I'm coming to this conclusion from personal experience with myself.

All throughout gradeschool (I grew up in southern America) I was told all the lies about drugs and I swallowed them whole. It took me years to break past this. Similar to your mom, I knew many drugs were essentially harmless but still had this resistance to try them - even just once - for whatever reason I would come up with. At this point, I was all for legalization and decriminalization but I still had this mental block that kept me from trying it even just once. I'm talking a puff of a joint here.

Well a few years ago, I eventually decided to try a few things just to see what it was all about and it was only after these personal experiences that I realized how deep those lies were internalized years ago. I knew some substances were much less harmful to my body than alcohol yet I would drink after work and continue to avoid anything else that was "one of those other drugs". I knew all the facts but still resisted. I think facts do work on people. You just have to be patient and give them time to break past that level of brainwashing. Again, I'm just talking from personal experience here because I've been there before. So I can empathize with her even if it is frustrating from my POV today.

Re: Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work

#130
post #31

It's not often that I have the opportunity to feel proud of the legislators in my home country, but Portugal has been on the leading edge of drug prevention and rehabilitation since we moved from a "war on drugs" to a program of health risk prevention and removed the weight of criminal charges and proceedings from the equation. Some interesting articles below: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/portugal-drug-de…

Has this reduced other related crime as well? Is there a general perception that things are safer?
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