Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#121

Post by nemothekid » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:34 PM UTC

sporkenfang wrote: post #117

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And it may be that it intimidates more women than men." I've been looking around for a developer recently, and in looking at the profiles of women vs. men at places like AngelList I noticed a few key differences in how they described themselves. We're talking about people with very similar academic backgrounds here with similar levels of experience. Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while…

It's interesting that you say your bias is toward perceiving someone self-reporting as working on a team as "everyone on the team did the work but me". Does this result from primarily working alone, or have you just been granted license to be more autonomous than most coders I know? A lot of shops both employ pair programming and have a series of pairs working on one project, or have a t the very least a bunch of peo…

I felt the same as 'api' when he explained that and to me, it came from my bad experiences working on teams, in high school, where 1 or 2 people did all the work and the rest rode the coattails to an easy A.

Of course my experiences in high school shouldn't factor into my judgement of reading judging peoples capabilities (because chances are everyone worked on a team that did X). Something like that might just be a hidden cultural bias - I'm sure everyone has an experience where they forced to worked with others who didn't feel like pulling their weight - and its those negative experiences that shape our notions of what it means to work on a team, rather than the multitude of positive experiences we may have had.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#122

Post by krschultz » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:40 PM UTC

ManFromUranus wrote: post #102

terrywilcox wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly didn't impose that criteria. I wanted the job. I certainly had the experience they were looking for. And no, nobody came out and said I was too old. They just reacted like I used to react when old people told me they understood computers. Pleasant, but patronizing. How could an old guy possibly handle any modern technology when he's got COBOL and FORTRAN on his resume? Discrimination is rarely blatant. I'…

Well for starters, COBOL and FORTRAN are effectively ancient technologies are far as much of modern business programming is concerned. I would omit them from your resume. State them for interest sake only. Also they are not a charity organization, the business goal is to get value out of you. Perhaps you did not demonstrate sufficient value, or seemed out of touch with current technology. I have found that programmer…

but you do have to stay up to date with tech, and that is a battle that gets harder and harder as you age.

Wait what? That right there is blatant age-ism.

You know what helps learn new technology? When it's the same shit we did 15 years ago repackaged. WSDL is coming back around right now, just in JSON or Protobuf form. Don't you think mobile apps that have to sync with the server are a lot like server/client apps from the 90s?

To think that it's hard to pickup a new language just because you are 50 is really missing the forest for the trees of what it means to be a software engineer.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#123

Post by nicolethenerd » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:41 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #101

thedufer wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that Fog Creek has 0% gender diversity is evidence of this No it's not. Do the math - at the rate of women in the application pool, and the total number of devs Fog Creek has ever hired, it would actually be fairly surprising if they'd ever hired a woman. The internship program, on the other hand (larger sample size) runs at more or less the expected rate, if memory serves. This seems to make it pretty cle…

When I applied at Fog Creek, I asked about diversity in the workplace and got what I considered to be a hasty, defensive, almost-canned response. Prior to their jarring, incongruous answer, I was worried I was not good enough at software development to get the job. Afterward, I suspected it was just another "cultural fit" thing. They did use videoconferencing in the interview process, if I recall correctly. I thought…

How about "Your software skills were great, but so-and-so's were better"? Of course, not knowing you and not working at Fog Creek, there's no way to know if that was the actual reason or not - but I would think it would be an acceptable reason.

Something I've realized since ending up on the hiring side of things is that there's a bit of a mismatch between how candidates and companies see the hiring process. As a candidate applying for jobs, I used to think I was applying to "the company" as an entity, and I was either good enough or I wasn't. The company, however, sees its candidates as applying for a specific position - like college admissions, there may be more qualified applicants than spots the budget allows for - especially at a place like Fog Creek.

(And, anecdotally, I am female and many years ago applied to Fog Creek for an internship. I didn't get it, but I enjoyed the interview process - it was one of the more interesting and challenging technical interviews I've done.)

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#124

Post by Dewie » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:45 PM UTC

api wrote: post #38

skywhopper wrote: post #6

I'm glad the "rigorous testing process" was mentioned. The facade of "we only hire superninja-kickass-hyperexperts and we will verify that you are such a programmer before we hire you" attracts a certain type of person, and intimidates another. And it may be that it intimidates more women than men. But the article seems to glide past that and presents the idea that five years of experience might change someone's will…

"And it may be that it intimidates more women than men." I've been looking around for a developer recently, and in looking at the profiles of women vs. men at places like AngelList I noticed a few key differences in how they described themselves. We're talking about people with very similar academic backgrounds here with similar levels of experience. Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while…

> Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while men -- who obviously did the same kind of work -- would simply say "I did X."

Depending on what X is, and on context, it can be obvious that "worked on X" simply means that they worked on X, but that doesn't mean that others did not also work on it, with them. Especially if "X" is too big and complex for one person to do on ones own. In particular, researchers in CS (maybe coincidentally majority of men) tend to say that they "work on" or "are interested in" X, Y, Z - but that doesn't really mean that they don't collaborate or work with other people on those things. It's not exclusionary at all.

But this interpretation doesn't fit with the usual men-are-egotistical-narcissists-compared-to-women. So pay this comment no mind.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#125

Post by ashray » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:45 PM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #109

ashray wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (www.gapjumpers.me) are trying to solve the gender diversity issue in tech by using blind auditions as a first filter. Our data shows that blind auditions result in greater diversity numbers. By using a technical challenge as the first step and fast forwarding people to an advanced interview stage, we're eliminating candidate reluctance and increasing transparency (the candidate interacts directly with the hiring…

Interesting that you mention gender diversity but there's no mention about racial diversity.

Our profile capture does not require applicants to include their demographic information, hence the only way we've been able to easily split by gender is by identifying their profile images and names.

Of course, outcomes have shown that racial diversity is also helped along. Our hypothesis is that if you work to remove bias through process there should be a measurable (even if it's small) change in diversity metrics.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#126

Post by Fomite » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:47 PM UTC

ripb wrote: post #112

There are more women than men in employment in the US, where is the daily articles on that? And the effort to tackle that? And the constant shaming of companies that employ more women than men? There are 1.4x the amount of women graduating college than men. Where are the daily articles on that massive issue? Where is the effort to do something about that? Where is the constant headlines on how many more women are gra…

There have been a vast slew of articles on the problem of male unemployment, and particularly the problem of the unemployment rate in minority males, who got hit particularly hard by the recession and have not seen those jobs come back. Around the recession this was all over the news.

Higher education has also been tackling the issue of getting men into college, and keeping them there until graduation. As has primary and secondary education, asking questions like what it takes to get boys to read more, and the effects of having mostly female teachers.

That you have to ask where they are suggests to me that you haven't looked very hard.

And the assumption that you cannot tackle multiple issues at the same time, worrying about both diversity in tech and unemployment in men, is simply false.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#127

Post by shepardrtc » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #106

Kronopath wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about developers with little experience, that come right out of school, or are applying for an internship position? Are you going to cut them out of the process? If so, are you okay with the fact that you'll often be missing out on getting an early lead on good junior developers? Good developers rarely kick around on the job market, and so it's often much more difficult to hire them when they've become more seni…

I'm not suggesting to do this exclusively. By all means, hire promising devs out of college using the method the GP prefers. I'm just suggesting that when an applicant like this exists before you, it makes more sense (assuming you're happy with their accomplishments) to confirm that these are indeed their accomplishments than to try to cram in some ad hoc heuristic for determining their range of skills in an hour or…

When I used to hire people, I focused more on their intelligence, their focus, and their motivation. Any idiot can google snippets of code or memorize answers to questions. What I wanted was someone that could handle learning what they don't know, motivate themselves to get the job done, and most of all, get the job done.

And you can't figure those things out just by looking at a resume or by quizzing them for hours until they break. You have to actually talk with them. Engage them in conversation. Learn who they are and how they fit into this field. Learn about their past experiences and their future goals. Then the question as to whether or not to hire them is easy.

Resumes are a starting point. Previous knowledge is a time-saver. Problem-solving and motivation is where its at.

*As a side note, most of my interviews were 30 minutes or less. I only regretted one hire, and I got rid of him pretty quickly.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#128

Post by nulltype » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:52 PM UTC

api wrote: post #38

skywhopper wrote: post #6

I'm glad the "rigorous testing process" was mentioned. The facade of "we only hire superninja-kickass-hyperexperts and we will verify that you are such a programmer before we hire you" attracts a certain type of person, and intimidates another. And it may be that it intimidates more women than men. But the article seems to glide past that and presents the idea that five years of experience might change someone's will…

"And it may be that it intimidates more women than men." I've been looking around for a developer recently, and in looking at the profiles of women vs. men at places like AngelList I noticed a few key differences in how they described themselves. We're talking about people with very similar academic backgrounds here with similar levels of experience. Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while…

I'm not an athlete, but I'll run a mile against anyone who claims to be 10X faster than me.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#129

Post by tenpoundhammer » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

tenpoundhammer wrote: post #73

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And it may be that it intimidates more women than men." I've been looking around for a developer recently, and in looking at the profiles of women vs. men at places like AngelList I noticed a few key differences in how they described themselves. We're talking about people with very similar academic backgrounds here with similar levels of experience. Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while…

I worked with a 10x developer once, he was awful and I couldn't stand to work with him. Although he could produce an insane amount of code and functionality his presence was like throwing a grenade into the middle of the dev team everyday. He left to take a job at google and the overall team productivity went up significantly. He basically did 10X individually,but took 11x away from the team. So team work is pretty d…

I wanted to reply to all the comments so I just decided to reply to my own comment. For those telling me I'm misinterpreting what a 10x dev is, I don't think a solid definition of the 10x developer actually exists it's mostly in the eye of the beholder.

I think it's mostly in what other people think of them especially that guy that hands out raises. So it's incredibly subjective.

I say a 10x developer is someone that can create features 10x faster than everyone else, regardless of their other skills.

To be clear my dream rockstart software engineer is not a 10x developer. They are 5x developer, a 5x Team player, 5x architect and 10x Mentor. So maybe we need a dictionary of terms around what people by various nicknames and concepts given to the various kinds of software developers.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#130

Post by gaius » Thu, Mar 05, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

psionn wrote: post #113

geebee wrote: post #10

Several people have already mentioned it here, but I'm also very pleased to read this line: "Hall asked a simple question: Why didn't Chipps, a brilliant engineer, ever apply to work at Fog Creek? Chipps said she didn't think she would make it through their rigorous testing process." I do think that the grueling and intimidating software interview process is a very serious problem in our field. This one sentence hint…

It's why I switched to a PM role. I miss programming every day, but I hate the thought of doing another stupid technical interview.

As I often say, interviews based on the final year algorithms and datastructures exam are just a way to sneak ageism under the HR radar.