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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#121

Post by a3n »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #13

So the mailman remembers everyone you've ever sent or received mail with. The DOJ remembers every time your car pulls in front of a police vehicle with a LPR. The NSA is tracking what people you call, when, how long, and where you are when you call them. For the life of me I do not understand why both major parties aren't having conniption fits right now. Are these the same parties that, on a bipartisan basis, told N…

Probably something like regulatory capture is at work, but here it's the overseen agencies that have captured Congress.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#122

Post by eru »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #104
click170 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has a gum problem, we can all agree. That said, I feel like the right to bare arms was included specifically for overthrowing oppressive governments (and in case the British came back?). At what point does a government become sufficiently oppressive as to be overthrown by the people? Without defining that, I feel like government can just keep employing the "but terrorists" excuse and the overton window to kee…

Sometimes I get upset when I encounter a gum on the street, but I stop short of calling for more gum control. And, I don't have any idea where any person gets the idea that they have the right to tell another person whether or not to shave their arms. As for the second thing you said, sounds like you probably just need a little more soma.

You should move to Singapore. They fixed their gum problem, without impeding the right to bare arms.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#123

Post by javert »

desdiv wrote: post #75
dnm wrote: post #48

I first encountered these checkpoints in New Mexico and Texas this summer. They're really kind of interesting. It looks like a truck weigh station, except the interstate lanes are closed and everyone is forced to exit. They stop everyone at the checkpoint. They have some kind of terminal under a hood, but the officer (C&BP) looked at the terminal, asked me what country I'm from (USA) and sent me on my way (I'm white,…

What you encountered was probably a C&BP interior checkpoint[0]. Whenever DHS apologists use the "air travel is a privilege, not a right" line, this is what I point them to. Between random C&BP highway checkpoints and TSA patrols on Amtrak, harassment-free travel of any form seems to be a privilege nowadays. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_int...

In your case I'm preaching to the choir, but this might help:

There is only one fundamental right, and it is to not have force initiated against you. (Why? Simply because that is in the self-interest of each rational adult human.)

Ergo, the government cannot properly stop you from air travel, moving about freely in the country, etc.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#124

Post by navait »

woodman wrote: post #71
navait wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If security through obscurity is having secrets at all, all security is obscurity.

What is secret about a moat, electrified fence or a stated policy of mutual assured destruction?

Heh, true. I've seen too much time thinking of computer security, and neglected to think of real world security.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#125

Post by pinaceae »

DickingAround wrote: post #119
westernrepublic wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're such a moron it hurts.

This is not a constructive comment. If he is wrong, explain why.

well, I agree with the poster you're replying to.

remember, it takes a magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than to create it. it is just tiring to see asinine comments like the OPs.

as if the US or any country ever was a beacon of light and justice. slavery? genocide against the natives? two unnecessary nuclear bomb attacks? anything that ever happened in latin america, in the last 100 years? guantanamo? iraq 2?

same for any other empire, they're all built on blood, racism and delusion. the brits, japan, china, the romans, the soviets. it does not matter. it is all the same bullshit.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#126

Post by zghst »

Zigurd wrote: post #98
joliv wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things the public should not be able to spy on. Using the example of the DEA, we can't have cartels knowing the identities of the DEA's informers, or when and where they're planning to make a bust. We can't have our citizens' tax records getting out of the IRS. And public relations would break down if we can't keep our allies secrets, either. Our military's plans shouldn't be made known to the enemy, of course.…

> we can't have cartels knowing the identities of the DEA's informers You should learn about how CIs are blackmailed, used, and discarded, and, often enough die. If informants were outed and the use of CIs ended, it would be a benefit to everyone. Wikileaks? Cables? We lost all our allies, right? Don't fear radical transparency. It will be to your benefit.

Radical transparency would be good, so long as it's not exposed to everyone in the world. We often forget the multitude of wickedness in the world, and while the US government smells, there are actors on the outside that wouldn't hesitate to manipulate/destroy us the moment we free up information.

Undoubtedly, the power between the people and the government is unbalanced, but unrestricted transparency is not a one stop solution to the problem.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#127

Post by derefr »

woodman wrote: post #47
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

I was thinking recently that the best thing that could happen to Internet privacy would be for someone to build a Palantir clone with an open API, such that anyone could dox anyone else for $0.10 a pop. Being able to dox yourself (like Googling yourself, but PRISM-er) in real time would basically give you an OPSEC REPL, perfect for figuring out how to reduce your exposure.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#128

Post by zaroth »

woodman wrote: post #47
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

The only way within the system is I guess the Supreme Court. They have already laid a framework establishing that tracking requires a warrant, even if it's just making the police's job more efficient and it's data they can get from a tail.

If the license plate tracking gets to that point within metropolitan areas (presumably where cameras are most dense) or they start doing it from blimps or whatever, at least there is precedence for striking it.

It's not going to stop the collection but it should at least prevent the data being used against you in court. Of course, parallel construction. Sigh...

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#129

Post by derefr »

joliv wrote: post #99
woodman wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security through obscurity? No doubt a great deal would need to change, but we've tried the method of giving a select group of individuals an immense amount of power and hoping for the best. It hasn't worked out that well. So I'd recommend that you consider the present situation, because the prospect of you knowing my tax information, by comparison, doesn't seem so bad.

Interesting—I haven't seen that term used that way before. If I encrpyt my customers' private data using a well-publicized encryption method, is it still security through obscurity, simply because they are secrets?

If you keep the key on the same machine as the data, it might be the specific kind of "security through obscurity" that is more commonly referred to as "DRM."

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#130

Post by tomphoolery »

woodman wrote: post #47
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

Much like the Constitution you mentioned, I feel we need some sort of document that explains the intentions behind surveillance and the limitations by which it can be legally used. We have no problem upholding the bill of rights, so why would it be hard to create a set of guidelines for future regulation of surveillance? Making it open is not a complete solution (though it's still a good idea), because we're still not setting any limitations as to how this information can be legally used. We need to do more to protect the rights of the citizens involved.

People like Edward Snowden have said surveillance can be used for good purposes. For example, fast forward and imagine auto insurance companies using this traffic monitoring data: Instead of structuring their prices based around age/gender/racial/class discrimination, they can use actual statistics to determine a little more about how safe someone is driving. Or instead of civil engineers having to waste time, money and other resources doing traffic studies...what if they could see the effects of their work in real-time? I think this technology could be used for very good purposes if there was just some transparency and rules surrounding it.

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