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I Owe It All to Community College

nytimes.com

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Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#121

Post by protomyth »

danielweber wrote: post #11
brohoolio wrote: post #4

$95 dollars a semester. It shows you how society used to provide resources for people to bootstrap their lives. The same individuals who benefited from this investment have not decided to pay it forward. They argue for lower taxes and support for education.

How much do you think community college costs these days after a Pell Grant?

Depends on the pell award. Place I am working is at $1,650/semester Tuition and Fees for 12+ credits (prorated for under 12 credits). Books are around $350 semester and we don't have housing yet.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#122

Post by lifehug »

romaniv wrote: post #70
danielweber wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to this view. In general, I tend to favor flat programs that no one prices out of instead of need-based programs, because it gets rid of the marginal tax that happens when you earn more. (Every program that is just "for the poor" is a marginal tax on the person climbing out of poverty.) Also, I view the financial aid merely as price discrimination. We wouldn't consider another industry as compassionat…

FAFSA documents are not complicated to fill out, but the overall process require you to spend some amount of time on jumping through various hoops. Also, it has prerequisites and conditions you need to keep track of. For people who are short on money (and therefore time) all of that has significance.

At first my adviser did all of this for me. It was waaaaaaaaay easier than any test I ever took in college.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#123

Post by bko »

I think community college is a great opportunity but I don't know if government funding this will really help many. From what I read, community college isn't very expensive and, since it is so valuable, I can't imagine that many people are on the fence about attending due to the monetary cost. There is a lot bigger investment required in terms of dedication, focus and effort, but I don't think the constraint is monetary.

If the government picks up what little monetary cost isn't already picked up by the state or other groups, this will certainly attract some students to attend but I imagine those marginal students would be a lot less serious and would not benefit from the program. To paraphrase Nassim Taleb, it's always helpful to have some skin in the game.

An interesting statistic to look at is college completion rates [0][1] which haven't improved too much over the last few decades (although certainly on the way up for women). I was pretty surprised to learn that completion rates are only 30-35%. I imagine community college completion rates are even lower.

Even though more people will certainly attend, getting more people into college won't necessarily benefit anyone. For those that aren't able to perform in an academic environment (for whatever reason) are ill-served by the nagging insistence of politicians.

[0] http://www.hamiltonproject.org/multimedia/charts/college_com... [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/new-college-da...

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#124

Post by methehack »

danielweber wrote: post #66
snake_plissken wrote: post #56

The initial proposal from The President costs $60 billion over ten years or $6 billion per year. For some perspective, conservative estimates have put the cost of the war in Iraq at $500 million a day. This proposal would cost 72 days of war. It's difficult to comprehend how our politicians could have any issues supporting such an initiative.

If we just buy everything that is cheaper than the Iraq war, we will very soon be bankrupt.

The wars in the middle east are not likely to make us more money than the cost. This is. It's an investment, like roads. It grows the economy. This is more or less considered a fact in macroeconomics.

There are two very comparable super-relevant historical precedents: public high school education (yes that was someone's idea too) and the GI Bill. Both of these social programs (as they would be called today) have made this country not only a better place but MONEY.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#125

Post by owensims1 »

The main benefits he reaped from CC are an atmosphere of learning and growth, and the ability to engage with interesting people, not the degree itself.

Both of those things can be obtained outside of college(community or otherwise). Too many people will get the degree for its own sake and simply coast by for this program to be worth it.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#126

Post by remarkEon »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #99
caseydurfee wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an initiative that will lead to higher earning potential for Americans, leading to higher tax revenues over the long term. Will it pay for itself? Probably not, but it's juvenile to act like all government spending is equal when it comes to the country's long term financial health.

Yes, potential. It will also further devalue high school diplomas as well as make good high schools less of a priority across the nation (everyone is going to CC anyway, right?). It probably makes bachelor's degrees even more of a requirement for decent jobs, making people more likely to take on student loans and spend their 20 and 30s paying them back for a piece of paper, restricting their mobility and options. Thr…

So your problem is with the paper? Agree that the "system" is "broken", but I think describing college as just a "piece of paper" really over-simplifies the problem. Do we not need some way of certifying skill sets? And I'm unconvinced that what you would see would actually be a devaluing of high school diplomas. Potentially, we'd just view high school how we view elementary school now - something everyone assumes you do. Are we not trying to encourage everyone to do more and become more educated? In what way could we benefit/teach people that doesn't cost anything?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#127

Post by ashark »

danielweber wrote: post #65
mhurron wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of taking it out of the federal govt. budget Why is education for the citizens of a country considered something that a countries government should have no part in in the US? If education really is something important for the country, would it not make more sense for the country to prioritize and fund it as opposed to leaving it to the whims of whomever feels like funding it that day?

If food really is something important for the country, would it not make more sense for the country to prioritize and fund it as opposed to leaving it to the whims of whomever feels like funding it that day? Most of the benefit of food is private: when I eat, I am no longer hungry. That means I take care of my food myself. Most of the benefit to education is, as well, private. If I become a lawyer, I capture most of…

> If food really is something important for the country, would it not make more sense for the country to prioritize and fund it as opposed to leaving it to the whims of whomever feels like funding it that day?

We... do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Ag...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_farm_bill

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#128

Post by lotso »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #99
caseydurfee wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an initiative that will lead to higher earning potential for Americans, leading to higher tax revenues over the long term. Will it pay for itself? Probably not, but it's juvenile to act like all government spending is equal when it comes to the country's long term financial health.

Yes, potential. It will also further devalue high school diplomas as well as make good high schools less of a priority across the nation (everyone is going to CC anyway, right?). It probably makes bachelor's degrees even more of a requirement for decent jobs, making people more likely to take on student loans and spend their 20 and 30s paying them back for a piece of paper, restricting their mobility and options. Thr…

> It will also further devalue high school diplomas as well as make good high schools less of a priority across the nation (everyone is going to CC anyway, right?).

I can't imagine anyone actually thinking that.

"Who needs good elementary schools? Everyone is going to middle school anyway, right?"

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#129

Post by copperx »

thoth wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #9

I have issues with the Obama plan, not because I'm against community colleges, but because I have issues with how this will (probably) be funded (read: taxes). As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That said, I'm a community college grad myself, three times over. I have an A.G.E. (General Education) from Brunswick…

>As a libertarian / ancap who believes taxation is theft, I don't support anything involving spending tax dollars, no matter how noble the end. That's pretty hard core. How would you fund services like police/fire departments or infrastructure improvements (roads, electricity), basically anything where its existence benefits many (as opposed to say redoing education to require parents to pay for individual tutoring o…

OP is an idiot/troll. I don't understand why so many take the trouble to respond.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#130

Post by supercanuck »

danielweber wrote: post #58
jordache wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

narrow-sighted logic. Diversity is what makes life. If you attach future earning potential qualifier to the free education, then you'll have a disproportionate amount of people attempting fit their square potential into a round hole. Over a long period of time, you loose out the natural diversity that would otherwise exist in the general public - of people each dedicated to skill set they are best match for. Not ever…

Not everything human produces ought to have an economic component. This is great. But then we need to stop talking about "investment" in college education. This is instead "consumption," like taking a ski trip to Aspen. How much should the US pay for people to take ski trips to Aspen? I promise you they'll enjoy it.

I think this is still narrow sighted. What we're talking about is collectivism vs individualism.

Sending everyone to community college to learn various things produces a benefit to society that might not translate to economic benefit for that particular person.

An educated populace is good for a democracy.

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