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What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

rw.runnersworld.com

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Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#121

Post by amaks »

Retric wrote: post #58
justinpaulson wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distance running isn't about power like cycling is.

Distance Cycling is far more about endurance than a 2+h marathon. EX: Tour de france ~90h over 21 days. http://www.letour.com/le-tour/2014/us/overall-route.html

You're comparing apples to oranges. Riding multi-day bicycle race is completely different from the running a single marathon event. Some people run marathons every day, for a year (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/02/05/marathon.record.enge...). It's hard to argue that that would require no less endurance than Tour de France (or Vuelta).

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#122

Post by nl »

outside1234 wrote: post #11

Better drugs than they are currently on. Nobody wants to admit it, but that is the real reason for the change in inflection of the line. See cycling.

So....

Yes, it seems likely that drugs have been a factor in the increased speed of distance runners. Sadly, the testing procedures for athletics are notably worse that for cycling (especially in the offseason).

However running does have one critical difference compared to cycling that gives a small glimmer of possibility that some runners might be clean and competitive with dirty runner.

In running, "running economy"[1] is a huge factor in performance, and is quite variable and can be improved with training[2]. In cycling there isn't really a similar factor (except for a cyclists weight): the ceiling of non-doped performance over a 40+ minute timeframe seems to top out at around 6.4 Watts/kg, and that can be projected directly onto a given climb to calculate the best possible time. Yes, tactical factors, weather and measurement errors make that seem more precise than it is in practice but the point is that there does seem to be a genuine ceiling on output.

In running that ceiling hasn't been found. Running economy is measured by putting runners in a closed-system and measuring speed vs energy usage. Elite runners generally are more efficient than non-elite, but no one really knows why.

However, it has been proven that running economy can be improved by training with runners who are faster than you[!].

Two points here: some runners might be clean and be beating dirty runners through better economy (which they might have obtained by training next to doped runners), and secondly it might be possible to find methods to improve economy dramatically.

(Road cyclist, sometimes runner, eternal optimist here)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_economy

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15233599

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#123

Post by city41 »

raverbashing wrote: post #24

Marathon and other endurance sports are interesting. It takes a toll on the body. It catabolizes it. Compare a marathon runner with a 100m runner. Also, as expected, temperature plays a big factor in it, which makes me wonder why so many people "love when it's a nice day" (read: sunny and hot) to exercise.

Anyone into running will tell you their favorite days are overcast, cool, and even a little drizzle doesn't hurt. Hell, my favorite time to run is the winter.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#124

Post by clarkm »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #118
nl wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Running with the Kenyans"[1]. Euro/Asian/American runners might have nice tracks to train on, but they don't have things like training groups that include multiple Boston, NY and Berlin winners. That book is pretty eye opening read. The running culture is like nothing else - guys who come 3rd in the world 10,000m championship are hardly worth mentioning, high school races have better fields than US or European…

I read into your post the idea that it's training culture and not genetics that gets so many east africans into distance running success. Correct me if I'm wrong. Seems unlikely to me. 100m and 200m is thoroughly dominated by New World West Africans. Mid distance 400m to 1600m is pretty well split up between Africans, Whites, and East Asians. Whites actually seem to do well at 800m. I don't really know, but it seems…

No idea why you're being downvoted. Having high-altitude adaptations certainly helps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_hu...

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#125

Post by sheepdestroyer »

Thrymr wrote: post #79
vog wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a straw man. Nobody argued against using minutes and hours. This is not about blindly using plain SI units wherever possible. This is about writing for an international audience. Most people in the world don't use miles but kilometres in their everyday life. This especially important when reporting about an international event such as the marathon.

I'll admit that my comment was tongue-in-cheek and alludes to the fact that units are harder than they seem. I suspect that Runner's World (an American magazine) knows their audience, and that they are mostly Americans (they do have some international sites [1], but I didn't see this article in a glance at the UK site). Personally, I wish the US would just go with the metric system already, but that's another discuss…

The thing is, they are talking about an international push by international athletes to break world records and the 2h limit. It takes data about events in many countries and while US recognise SI system still manage to convert everything to imperial units.

I am wondering if that's wise in such an international context, when not talking about a subject taking place only in US and affecting only US citizen.

I mean, even US citizens learn the International standard at school so why not constantly use to it when it's clearly appropriate (international sport, athletes and events places)?

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#126

Post by KobaQ »

Unfortunately this article misses the third of the three components to improve endurance performance, which is lactate production rate (indicator for fat burning: the lower the more energy is produced by burning fat).

Two athletes with the same VO2max and efficiency can have vastly different performances in a marathon. The body's VO2max potential can be used by solely burning carbs, which supply is limited (about 2000 kcal) whereas fat supply is practically unlimited (1 kg has about 7000 kcal. As a marathon requires more energy than is available as stored carbs, the ability to burn fat is a major factor in marathon performance.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#127

Post by KobaQ »

amaks wrote: post #121
Retric wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distance Cycling is far more about endurance than a 2+h marathon. EX: Tour de france ~90h over 21 days. http://www.letour.com/le-tour/2014/us/overall-route.html

You're comparing apples to oranges. Riding multi-day bicycle race is completely different from the running a single marathon event. Some people run marathons every day, for a year ( http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/02/05/marathon.record.enge... ). It's hard to argue that that would require no less endurance than Tour de France (or Vuelta).

Yes, apples to oranges, but if we use total energy requirement and duration of a competition as indicator, than a typical road cycling race requires much more endurance than a marathon.

This is a classic one-day race, > 5000 kcal, > 6 hours.

http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/amstel-gold-race/

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#128

Post by bagacrap »

mabbo wrote: post #19
outside1234 wrote: post #11

Better drugs than they are currently on. Nobody wants to admit it, but that is the real reason for the change in inflection of the line. See cycling.

What will drugs give them though? As the article says, the perfect runner will be light, short, have long legs, insane VO2 max, good heat dissipation, low oxygen requirements. Apart from blood doping to increase VO2 max, what can one do to improve those other things?

Drugs like testosterone allow you to lose fat mass while retaining muscle mass. Drugs like clenbuterol help you shed weight and metabolize fat more quickly.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#129

Post by bagacrap »

nl wrote: post #122
outside1234 wrote: post #11

Better drugs than they are currently on. Nobody wants to admit it, but that is the real reason for the change in inflection of the line. See cycling.

So.... Yes, it seems likely that drugs have been a factor in the increased speed of distance runners. Sadly, the testing procedures for athletics are notably worse that for cycling (especially in the offseason). However running does have one critical difference compared to cycling that gives a small glimmer of possibility that some runners might be clean and competitive with dirty runner. In running, "running economy…

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason Kenyans dominate at long distance running is that their national ADA (anti doping agency) doesn't enforce the rules.

It's starting to come apart at the seams though: http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/doping-probe-spurs-kenyas-...

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#130

Post by Rizz »

raverbashing wrote: post #24

Marathon and other endurance sports are interesting. It takes a toll on the body. It catabolizes it. Compare a marathon runner with a 100m runner. Also, as expected, temperature plays a big factor in it, which makes me wonder why so many people "love when it's a nice day" (read: sunny and hot) to exercise.

Because sunny weather improves peoples mood, just look around you when it's raining and cold, people are glum and looking down a lot, while on a sunny day you see plenty of people smiling. Good mood means you feel better and perform better.

Second, your muscles are already somewhat warm, so you feel powerful right from the start instead of having to warm up for ages before you're ready for top performance.

Also, your training or just going for a run is not at the same intensity as running a marathon as a race. You run shorter distances or lower intensity, meaning the stable body temperature at marathon pace and distance is a cooling body at training pace at the same outside temperature.

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