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Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

theguardian.com

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Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#121

Post by anigbrowl »

arbuge wrote: post #118
anigbrowl wrote: post #113

This story appears on HN like clockwork every 3 months. Why? Because the Federal register publishes quarterly figures, the articles write themselves with very little work, and there's a large contingent of people on HN who think taxes are evil. I do think the policy of taxing US citizens on overseas earnings is unwise and FACTA is somewhat unworkable, but it's worth noting that taxation of Americans living abroad (an…

This has nothing to do with thinking taxes are evil. This has everything to do with the fact that the US tax regime on overseas Americans makes life miserable for those expats. Oftentimes you finish up paying thousands of dollars for expensive tax help* only to demonstrate that your tax liability is $0 because foreign tax credits cancel out your foreign tax obligations. Besides all the difficulties with opening bank…

I agree completely, but there are a lot of people on HN who live in the US, have no plans to depart, and just like to grumble about government overreach and upvote threads about it, as you can see elsewhere in this thread, and in previous threads on the same subject.

In the same way there are threads twice each year about the change to/from daylight savings time which get lots of votes from people who hate the time change and wish it were abolished, including myself - look out for the next one in 5 weeks.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#122

Post by Istof »

ArtDev wrote: post #32

Typical for the IRS to go after the small fry while letting the behemoths get a free ride! Meanwhile, Facebook and Apple are supposedly based in Ireland. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-money-apple-avoids-p...

as usual, the smaller the crime the larger the risk

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#123

Post by refurb »

opendais wrote: post #100
MCRed wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but the IRS is also off the straight and narrow as they have gone after political opponents of the president, disappeared evidence in the ensuing investigation, etc. etc.

Yes, that is the Republican spin. Do you feel "open source software" is the political enemy of the president? That received the same level of scrutiny along with "progressive". http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-15/irs-sent-same-lette... It was a keyword based list based on types of organization the IRS had the most issues with. The Democrats were hit in 2011. Years before this was an "issue". Oddly enough, the Re…

Wait a second. You claim it's Republican Spin and the evidence you provide is that the IRS targeted three Democratic non-profits?

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#124

Post by pdx »

sliverstorm wrote: post #112
waqf wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean to imply that being double-taxed after your first $100k is fair and reasonable?

If you own two houses, just because you aren't living at House A right now doesn't mean you don't need to pay upkeep, and doesn't mean you aren't deriving benefit from it. Thought of differently- expats expect to be able to vote, right? Is it fair and reasonable for someone who is categorically excluded from paying taxes, to be allowed to vote?

Why not? Voting was implemented in the USA long before income tax was.

As for the theoretical 2nd house. You would pay property tax on it.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#125

Post by desdiv »

Someone1234 wrote: post #39
wmil wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine it's more of a "check this box to verify you are not a US citizen" system. The bank could then charge your account fees if you lied and they had to deal with the IRS. I actually think the US tax return laws are reasonable -- there have to be some obligations for citizens to go along with the rights they have.

> there have to be some obligations for citizens to go along with the rights they have US Citizens abroad have no real legal rights. edit: All the downvoters want to weigh in on exactly what a US citizen living outside of the US gains in terms of "rights?"

The right to return to the US and live there permanently, for one.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#126

Post by Someone1234 »

desdiv wrote: post #125
Someone1234 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there have to be some obligations for citizens to go along with the rights they have US Citizens abroad have no real legal rights. edit: All the downvoters want to weigh in on exactly what a US citizen living outside of the US gains in terms of "rights?"

The right to return to the US and live there permanently, for one.

But US citizens living abroad have to file tax returns even when they don't exercise that right. They could live abroad for the remainder of their life and have to file (under IRS rules).

That seems like a very flimsy argument for why US nationals abroad have to file tax returns.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#127

Post by Someone1234 »

claudius wrote: post #47
Someone1234 wrote: post #8

Random question: If you had dual citizenship (e.g. Canadian + US), do you even need to tell a bank about your US citizenship when opening an account? Can't you just open it as if you were a Canadian only? Even your US SSN wouldn't be associated with it, so for all the US G and the bank know you're just someone with the same name and birthday. As a random aside: The US Gov is practically the only country in the world…

> As a random aside: The US Gov is practically the only country in the world who tries to collect income tax from US citizens living abroad. The fact that Americans who move away have to file US tax returns for the remainder of their life is bonkers. Hm, I can somewhat understand that? If I was moving out of Germany and got into trouble abroad, I would expect (and receive) help from the German consulate/government. P…

That's not how that works.

If you get into trouble within a country where you have citizenship, another country where you also have citizenship won't intervene.

So for example, if you were a citizen in the US and Canada, and got into trouble in Canada the US would not assist you. However if you were on holiday in Canada or even a permanent resident then they would.

See Part III bullet 5:

http://germany.usembassy.gov/acs/dual_nationality/

That is pretty standard international practice. That countries won't interfere with another country's interactions with its own citizens (regardless of the source of citizenship).

The US-UK got into quite an international spat a few years ago when the UK tried to intervene after a dual UK-US citizen got sentenced to death in the US.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#128

Post by idlewords »

GFischer wrote: post #119
Grazester wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can become a U.S. citizen and maintain citizenship of your country of birth(or others your are holding)if the country wasn't China and a few others listed in the link I have provided. Half of my immediate family have become U.S. Citizens and maintained their other citizenships. http://www.immihelp.com/citizenship/dual-citizenship-recogni...

I was told by a friend who's getting U.S. citizenship you have to take an oath renouncing other citizenship.. here it is: "“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen…” from the Oath of Allegiance " http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html appare…

That is still the oath they make you take, but it has no legal consequences. You take it, eat the brownies that the VFW baked for your naturalization ceremony, and happily keep both passports.

Source: happily kept both passports.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#129

Post by lhc- »

philiphodgen wrote: post #43
jeffdavis wrote: post #11

"Steep penalties add muscle to the law. If a foreign bank – not just in Canada, but anywhere – fails to report even a single US citizen as a customer to the IRS, the US Treasury department would withhold 30% of the banks’ US income as penalty." What do they mean "US income"? How do they enforce it?

Let's say there is a tiny bank in Lichtenstein. It has two customers. Me, with $10,000 in the bank; I am a U.S. citizen. And the Sultan of Brunei, who deposits $1 billion. I tell the banker to keep my cash in the bank in Lichtenstein, and I use that bank account to pay my rent, buy food, and other ordinary things. The Sultan of Brunei tells the banker to take all of his money and plow it into the U.S. stock market. T…

Why should the US be obligated to let this foreign bank do business in the US and operate on the US stock market, if this bank refuses to comply with US tax laws and money laundering laws? There's nothing stopping this bank from operating on a European or Asian exchange instead. If they want the benefits of working with the US system, the US is totally within its rights to impose rules on that.

Re: Americans abroad are giving up their citizenship as banks shut down accounts

#130

Post by DominikR »

gyardley wrote: post #117
sliverstorm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it absurd? Or, from the other angle, why does it exist? (real answers please, not "becuz money-grubbing gub'mint") Considering you get to deduct $100k of your foreign earnings, it's not like they are trying to rake John Doe Expat over the coals.

It's absurd because no other country does it that way - the United States, despite the rhetoric, treats its own citizens worse in this aspect than any other country the rest of the civilized world. If other countries behaved the same way, it wouldn't be so ridiculous- but they don't, so it is.

I agree with you, but there is actually another country that is taxing foreign income of nonresident citizens: Eritrea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Individu...

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