BitPay and PayPal • Hacker News Board

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#121

Post by baddox » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 3:34 AM UTC

sanswork wrote: post #37

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Bitcoin makes it free to send money to friends. One way I could see this being financially viable to build a company around is if lots of people are storing money in the company's webwallet. Then the company could invest customers' money, like a bank. But if you are using a webwallet like Coinbase, then you are asking to get screwed out of your money, since there are no FDIC protections.

Its free if you have bitcoin and your friend wants bitcoin. Once you bring other currencies into the mix it is often more expensive to comparable services and just as slow if not slower.

> Its free if you have bitcoin and your friend wants bitcoin.

Yes, that goes without saying. It's also true of paying friends with USD cash.

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#122

Post by bduerst » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 3:35 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #107

jarek wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fiat currency is printed on the whim of governments, effectively defrauding the citizens of every country in the world through value dilution. Bitcoin is a technological innovation which allows for a constant and known rate of currency generation. I'd prefer to intrust my pension to maths than to a civil servant with an economics degree. This aspect shouldn't be overlooked or taken lighty because it disrupts the po…

There are numerous examples in history (and today!) of governments wiping out their citizens' savings through hyperinflation, restricting their access to foreign currencies, etc. This is not just an ideological libertarian conspiracy theory. It is a virtue of Bitcoin that it helps subvert the power of those corrupt governments over the economy in much the same way TOR and proxies help to subvert their power over free…

Equivocation fallacy. By that logic every other available currency in the world is saving us from the corrupted governments. Hell, the "virtue" of cowry shells can save me from hyperinflation and help protect my free speech!

Except people stopped using cowry shells as a currency, just as people stopped using Bitcoins as a currency. Now people hoard/trade them like digital beanie babies. If liquidity and insurance problems ever get solved, then we might see mass adoption.

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#123

Post by bduerst » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 3:50 AM UTC

joshuaxls wrote: post #30

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heard that before. The question to answer is, "Why now?" What's different now? Nothing. Not yet. This will change someday, but I don't think that's today. The day Bitcoin gets FDIC protections is the day it can go mainstream.

The point of bitcoin is that you don't need FDIC protection. You need FDIC protection with a bank because the bank isn't required to hold enough reserve to cover its deposits. If there's a run on the bank, and everyone wants to pull their deposits out, and the bank is insolvent, then the government guarantees to protect consumers by printing more money (inflation) to fulfill the bank's reserve requirements. With bitc…

Sooo when Mt. Gox became insolvent the bitcoin holders there didn't need insurance?

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#124

Post by aianus » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 4:38 AM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #122

aianus wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous examples in history (and today!) of governments wiping out their citizens' savings through hyperinflation, restricting their access to foreign currencies, etc. This is not just an ideological libertarian conspiracy theory. It is a virtue of Bitcoin that it helps subvert the power of those corrupt governments over the economy in much the same way TOR and proxies help to subvert their power over free…

Equivocation fallacy. By that logic every other available currency in the world is saving us from the corrupted governments. Hell, the "virtue" of cowry shells can save me from hyperinflation and help protect my free speech! Except people stopped using cowry shells as a currency, just as people stopped using Bitcoins as a currency. Now people hoard/trade them like digital beanie babies. If liquidity and insurance pro…

When $1 million in cowry shells become as simple to smuggle in and out of Argentina as a signed Bitcoin transaction, you'll have a point.

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#125

Post by justin_l » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 5:35 AM UTC

ssteinb wrote: post #87

Paypal is going to acquire the shit out of them. Calling it now.

That's all I can think of - Bitpay/Coinbase/Gocoin partnered with PayPal because PayPal offered to acquire one or all of them.

Bitpay and Coinbase* offer only two advantages over PayPal - slightly cheaper transactions, and the ability to transact in Bitcoin. Due to the merchant account requirements of each you lose anonymous transactions, so for example Silk Road could never use one of these services. So it strikes me as extremely odd that these guys would be partnering with Paypal, basically giving away their advantage, if there wasn't something bigger in it for them down the road.

* not sure about Gocoin as I haven't looked at its merchant account offering.

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#126

Post by jarek » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 6:09 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #108

jarek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know? It's currently small because it's currently impossible. I think the reason for my belief about iPhones-in-Nigeria being a small market is self-evident. As for other examples: people tend to buy things locally because local businesses are generally good at recognizing local demand, organizing import if necessary, and reaping the benefits of scale (shipping a container of phones). That this arrangeme…

> No - but as a price-sensitive customer I would buy a couple-months-old, gently-used Macbook and save $200 or more. As a price-sensitive business I would buy a Dell. Given the number of successful 1-2% cash-back credit cards, it would seem that even regular consumers care about saving tiny fractions on their spending.

Yes but putting $1000+ on a 1% cashback card every month adds up a lot faster than 5% on a once-every-two-years $2000 purchase.

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#127

Post by jarek » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 6:14 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #109

jarek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, that only leaves people who provide supplies to Soylent, people who ship the Soylent to you, and your water utility :)

Would you make fun of the Burundian Franc because I'd have to convert them into USD to pay my US suppliers? Not everyone has to directly accept Bitcoin for it to be a real currency and generally useful. The only difference with Bitcoin versus a small fiat currency is the people who are using it are distributed geographically worldwide instead of clumped together in one area. As long as they continue to prefer it to o…

> Would you make fun of the Burundian Franc because I'd have to convert them into USD to pay my US suppliers?

No, if it's a bona fide currency, if you can walk around in Burundi and buy bread or a goat or a gun with it, then of course having to convert it to buy a Macbook isn't a dealbreaker. But Bitcoin is in the opposite situation.

> The only difference with Bitcoin versus a small fiat currency is the people who are using it are distributed geographically worldwide instead of clumped together in one area.

So with a currency you can buy life essentials, with Bitcoin you can buy virtual things or things that are feasible to send through the post. I wonder what is going to be more valuable overall?

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#128

Post by jtwebman » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 6:32 AM UTC

What do you guys think of Coinbase? Is it a good replacement for BitPay? Sorry I am new to this are but wanted to start accepting Bitcoins

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#129

Post by XorNot » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 6:50 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #83

jarek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice list of things most consumers won't be doing. That's not to say there's no value for people who do need it, but it does not suggest Bitcoin will become hugely valuable like Visa. > - Buying things that people would be unwilling to sell to you with existing payment methods due to fraud risks. One legal example: iPhone purchases shipped to Nigeria. Small global market share for legal uses. > - Buying thin…

> Small global market share for legal uses. How do you know? It's currently small because it's currently impossible. > Most non-US residents can do bank transfers as fast as Bitcoin or will be able to Real Soon Now. I disagree, most non-US residents in the world don't even have bank accounts . Not to mention, the US and Canada are a huge market with a terrible banking system that refuses to modernize. > So like 5%? 5…

>I disagree, most non-US residents in the world don't even have bank accounts. Not to mention, the US and Canada are a huge market with a terrible banking system that refuses to modernize.

Didn't Nigeria, specifically, just issue national ID cards which are implicitly tied to being Mastercard direct debit cards as well?

Re: BitPay and PayPal

#130

Post by XorNot » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 6:53 AM UTC

aianus wrote: post #107

jarek wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fiat currency is printed on the whim of governments, effectively defrauding the citizens of every country in the world through value dilution. Bitcoin is a technological innovation which allows for a constant and known rate of currency generation. I'd prefer to intrust my pension to maths than to a civil servant with an economics degree. This aspect shouldn't be overlooked or taken lighty because it disrupts the po…

There are numerous examples in history (and today!) of governments wiping out their citizens' savings through hyperinflation, restricting their access to foreign currencies, etc. This is not just an ideological libertarian conspiracy theory. It is a virtue of Bitcoin that it helps subvert the power of those corrupt governments over the economy in much the same way TOR and proxies help to subvert their power over free…

What is Bitcoin but a collectivist agreement that something has value? Those bits aren't reimbursable. You can't get that electricity back for them once it's spent - unlike gold, which holds some real world value by virtue of being the element it is.

Bitcoin advocates rage about fiat, while trading the ultimate fiat currency since it doesn't take too many people deciding they don't want Bitcoin (say: landlords, farmers/wholesalers) before the currency is useless.