What I use instead of Google services • Hacker News Board

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#121

Post by mirkules » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:52 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #83

Carrok wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you're ok with me knowing everywhere you've been for the past few years? I'm going to assume then that you don't visit strip clubs, bars, 'adult book' stores, the house of your drug dealer, the house of your secret lover, a proctologists office, an OBGYN, an abortion clinic, or a million other places. You may not visit these places, but many others do, and having that information publicly available c…

strip clubs, bars, 'adult book' stores - these are all perfectly legal and innocuous activities. Who cares? the house of your drug dealer - being in someone's house in circumstantial at best. By your logic they would also have to arrest the drug dealer's mailman, maid, meter reader, etc. burglaries - again, circumstantial. Someone who wants to do me harm doesn't need a database full of comprehensive location informat…

Without intending to invoke Godwin's Law, I think what happened in WWII is a good lesson in dangers of overexposing your private life. Before WWII, Germany used "tax deductions" to entice people to reveal their religion to the government. Data which was later used to identify Jews during wartime.

Nobody is saying you need to unplug your machine from the internet, but just that because something doesn't impact you today, might not be true tomorrow. If you decide to run for office in 10 years, for example, you can bet your location data will become relevant (and it's not that far-fetched that the other party will try to obtain that data - reference the IRS email scandal).

The point is to minimize the aggregation of your data, to limit the impact it will have on your life once it leaks. After all, you never know who will get a hold of all your data once a company goes out of business (fir example).

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#122

Post by boling11 » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:52 PM UTC

astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

Advocating for greater accountability across the board sounds great in principle, but what does that even mean? Are we to hold Google, accountable for monetizing the data they collect on us? That's the social contract you engage in with Google, when you use their services.

Looking at the underlying business model is more effective. I am confident that DDG is going to respect my privacy, because that's what their whole business is built on! Similarly, I would be shocked if Apple turned around and started selling my data to advertisers, because I am their customer and I am the one paying them.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#123

Post by imgabe » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:55 PM UTC

mirkules wrote: post #121

imgabe wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

strip clubs, bars, 'adult book' stores - these are all perfectly legal and innocuous activities. Who cares? the house of your drug dealer - being in someone's house in circumstantial at best. By your logic they would also have to arrest the drug dealer's mailman, maid, meter reader, etc. burglaries - again, circumstantial. Someone who wants to do me harm doesn't need a database full of comprehensive location informat…

Without intending to invoke Godwin's Law, I think what happened in WWII is a good lesson in dangers of overexposing your private life. Before WWII, Germany used "tax deductions" to entice people to reveal their religion to the government. Data which was later used to identify Jews during wartime. Nobody is saying you need to unplug your machine from the internet, but just that because something doesn't impact you tod…

The problem in WWII was not that the government had a list of who all the Jews were. The problem was that there was a government that wanted to kill all the Jews. If the latter is true, they'll find out the information they want one way or another. Hiding a list does not solve the problem, which is that you have elected genocidal maniacs to your government.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#124

Post by kllrnohj » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:55 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #58

imgabe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, say someone has a complete database of my location sampled at 10 minute intervals over the past few years. What could they do with that information that would be harmful to me?

Build a very complete profile of you, sell that data to advertisers. Maybe tell insurance companies that you frequently do high risk activities. Sell the information that you were at the beach when you took a sick day. This list could go on and on. Another thing: Imagine someone would get HD video of your room while you slept in it. I can't imagine what use it would be but I absolutely would not like to be filmed lik…

> Build a very complete profile of you, sell that data to advertisers.

Why would advertisters spend money for a profile of you? Answer: they don't. This market just doesn't exist. It's fabricated. It's a fantasy to pretend your trivial existence is worth big bucks. It isn't.

Advertisers do not want your information. They want your money. Google uses your information to try and match you up with relevant advertisers. This is how ad networks work, a form of online dating basically. Your information does not go to the advertiser. Your information on its own is not worth anything.

> Maybe tell insurance companies that you frequently do high risk activities. Sell the information that you were at the beach when you took a sick day. This list could go on and on.

Who would spend money on this and how the hell would that market ever come into existence, much less in secret, such that everyone does freak the hell out?

Do you think Google sends employees out to secret hotel rooms with members of random stores to swap dirty secrets about you or something? Remember, advertisers are places you go to buy things. Not evil supervillans.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#125

Post by anaktos » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:56 PM UTC

toxican wrote: post #68

elliottpayne wrote: post #40

I switched to fastmail and duckduckgo in lieu of google products a little over a year ago for some of the same reasons. I tried to switch to safari from chrome, and that experiment lasted about 3 months before I got annoyed by how safari handles multiple tabs. But, as far as most of the criticisms posted here, they're really unfounded. If you want to be a purist about privacy, you really have to just quit using techn…

My thing isn't that I don't trust any one particular Google product. It's that I don't feel safe putting all of my eggs into one basket. A year ago, Google was my phone, my search engine, my email, video hosting, my DNS, my IM service (GTalk when it was still a thing), and cloud storage system. That's a lot of personal stuff all tied together under one account. So I split things up. I hosted some stuff where I could…

By the time when, Google will be our overlords. Running the world with no one to be able to resist their ironclad rule. Because they know you, they know where your most loved live, what you need most to live, what your habits are, what medications you need.

Doesn't that sound bit too pessimistic? Of course it does. You already trusted Google, why trust another company and risk your data?

What if, from the 10 companies you trust your data with, 2 of the go rogue and use your data against you? OR what if they get hacked, and lose everything? That's what I fear more than giving too much data to Google. I'd rather trust one super reliable guy (Google), than trusting 5 (Self hosting) maybe trust-able, 3 shady guys, and 2 unreliable guys. But that's just me, I make sure all my accounts have 2 step auth.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#126

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 8:58 PM UTC

yegg wrote: post #24

dhragoon wrote: post #3

"Apple Maps"? This is shameless. Not sure how to reconcile that with the seemingly mandatory PRISM invocations, the post was almost stomachable up until the Apple cameo especially with the recent privacy headlines. At Least recommend something that isn't a huge downgrade in functionality, an OSM client or something. I'm sure that Apple adding DDG to Safari is the reason for this thinly veiled reciprocity. Privacy or…

I updated the post to clarify I use OSM via DuckDuckGo for places. On mobile, I use iOS over Android and for turn-by-turn directions I've found Apple maps to be the best alternative to Google maps. That's the long and the short of it. No conspiracy.

Isn't DDG showing places from Yelp?

I've tested a few searches and things that are definitely in OSM don't show up.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#127

Post by pyre » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 9:00 PM UTC

kllrnohj wrote: post #119

Spearchucker wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tracking is an issue in that your interests, preferences, and proclivities are being used to make others richer. Hey if that's ok with you then I'm cool with that. I'm not cool with me doing that. I run ad blockers. If you make a living from ads then offer me a paid-for alternative. I avoid everything Google. I use a Windows Phone without a Microsoft account. If an app wants access to my contacts it doesn't get insta…

It sounds a lot more like you don't actually understand how advertising works. No, tracking helps to provide you with better services, full stop. Since you use an adblocker, tracking isn't making anyone money at all. Your personal information is worth exactly $0.00 on its own.

> No, tracking helps to provide you with better services, full stop

No. Tracking is about allowing advertisers to better target people that they want to advertise to. A side-effect is providing you with 'better' services.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#128

Post by a3n » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 9:04 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #41

oconnore wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between data privacy now, and data privacy 10 or 20 years ago has little to do with how many people have access to it, or how secure it is. It mostly has to do with who can analyze it. An example: where you walk in public is public information, but for most of human history, no one has had the capability to keep a database of that information and query it retroactively. Your location information is the…

Ok, say someone has a complete database of my location sampled at 10 minute intervals over the past few years. What could they do with that information that would be harmful to me?

> What could they do with that information that would be harmful to me?

Harmful to someone, and it's different for different people at different times. Also, a piece of information that may be benign today could be harmful tomorrow with a change in the political environment.

Maybe you visited a specialist, or were on the same floor as a specialist, and got extra attention from your health insurance as a result.

Maybe you were standing near someone being investigated, making you a person of interest and therefor subject to prosecutorial bullying.

Maybe you're trying to overthrow a government and would like to do it in safety for as long as possible.

Maybe you just like your privacy.

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#129

Post by NicoJuicy » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 9:04 PM UTC

Personally, a bunch of your suggestions are based on Apple = severly censored, anti-competitive,... i REALLY don't like that.

If walking away from Google means switching to Apple, then it's a no-go for me. I'll rather have Microsoft ( fyi. i'm mainly a c# developer, but also python, RoR and nodejs )

Re: What I use instead of Google services

#130

Post by astrocat » Tue, Sep 02, 2014, 9:04 PM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #116

astrocat wrote: post #75

> "Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo." It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something "bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as "relationship building." Let me explain... Google is a service provi…

Truthfully. I would have no problem with the amount of data google aggregated on me, if I could depend on them not using that data against me, or to manipulate me, or to sell it to someone who would do either of those two. If someone came up to me and said "I'll give you 5 dollars if you give me the names, email addresses, phone numbers, and personal vulnerabilities of all your friends", agreeing to that would be con…

> the question is: do you trust google?

This is too myopic of a question. Do you trust Apple? Do you trust Microsoft? Do you trust ____? There are arbitrarily many of these questions to ask.

What really needs to be asked is: how can we establish levels of trust in companies and services that handle our digital information that approaches the level of trust we have in our direct, inter-personal connections?

Not ratting on your friend is trust established through close social connections. Trusting Google to not sell you out is a level of trust established... how?