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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#121

Post by awildone »

growler wrote: post #94
awildone wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it get's worse. Because your not really tripping but rather fighting poisoning, it effectively cuts the connection to the better part of who you are. If it wasn't for alcohol, a lot of the trouble we see in society simply wouldn't exist.

I think there are a few examples of tripping being the result of poisoning. Mushrooms, various cacti... The reason mescalin makes you puke is not because it does a body good.

Can't comment on mescalin though, only tried cb, shrooms and hbw in the trippy part of the spectrum...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#122

Post by lukifer »

coldtea wrote: post #41
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

> We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives You don't just need to have a "sane policy". You need to have a sane culture. For one, a culture that doesn't treat alcohol as something necessary for having fun (e.g binge drinking on weekends, etc), but as someth…

I'm reminded of the story of Rat Park: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#123

Post by at-fates-hands »

DanHulton wrote: post #80
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

You do realize that a great deal of the problems associated with heroin addiction come from the very fact that it is illegal? The crime, the marginalization from society, the lack of access to health care or rehabilitation clinics, these things all make the addiction far, far worse than if we treated this whole thing a little saner and more compassionately.

>>> The crime, the marginalization from society, the lack of access to health care or rehabilitation clinics

Where do you live?

There's a myriad of state and federally funded programs here in the US that help people get treatment for a nominal fee or in many cases for free. Not sure how much more compassionate you can be when you're giving people a free alternative to get clean.

Also, if you've never had an addict for a friend or a relative, then you'll never know it doesn't matter how compassionate you are to them, if they want to use and continue to throw their life away - they will. They have to be willing to help themselves first. No amount of free clinics, health care or compassion will combat that.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#124

Post by DAddYE »

codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Switzerland (not in the UE) was one of the first countries where some drugs were permitted (like weed). Although (IIRC around 2000) they stopped.

Another country Nederland is well know in Europe for being very freedom with drugs. In Nederland in the latest few years they had several calls to put drugs on ban.

I visited Switzerland hundreds of times (it's like 15 miles where was my house) I have been in Amsterdam 4 times.

What I can say is that "citizens" were kinda sick and seems is not a thing anymore. Although is still a big big business economy for "tourists".

I think this thing of legalizing light drugs in america is like tobacco in 60-80', it was cool, trendy out of the scheme, but suddenly... things changed so much that I bet there are less tobacco smokers in California than the smallest town of Portugal.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#125

Post by r00fus »

dasmithii wrote: post #19
scoofy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bernie Sanders (Independent - VT) is the nation's only socialist Senator.

*he's the only self-proclaimed socialist. Surely there are more who possess similar ideologies, but aren't outwardly socialist.

No, I doubt it. The political left in the US is really pretty much extinct. What we have here are conservatives (Democrats) and reactionaries (Republicans). Both are corporate-friendly.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#126

Post by shawabawa3 »

superuser2 wrote: post #102
ap22213 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

There is such a thing as responsible, low-level alcohol consumption that doesn't turn into a spiral of addiction and self-destruction. Same with LSD. Not so much with heroin.

> Not so much with heroin.

Do you have a source for that?

Some quick googling found this study which suggests it happens

  [1] http://www.jrf.org.uk/system/files/1859354254.pdf

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#127

Post by jpgvm »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #123
DanHulton wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that a great deal of the problems associated with heroin addiction come from the very fact that it is illegal? The crime, the marginalization from society, the lack of access to health care or rehabilitation clinics, these things all make the addiction far, far worse than if we treated this whole thing a little saner and more compassionately.

>>> The crime, the marginalization from society, the lack of access to health care or rehabilitation clinics Where do you live? There's a myriad of state and federally funded programs here in the US that help people get treatment for a nominal fee or in many cases for free. Not sure how much more compassionate you can be when you're giving people a free alternative to get clean. Also, if you've never had an addict fo…

> if they want to use and continue to throw their life away

This is exactly the marginalization he was talking about. Some of the smartest people I know love hard drugs and are very successful, are they throwing their life away because they use on a regular basis?

Maybe you are only talking about the outright stoners that just get high every day, but are they really any different to the other lazy people that don't work? Not doing anything ever is generally what I would consider to be throwing your life away.

I don't think drug use has much to do with throwing your life away, apart from the depression that comes from being marginalized. People that wish to throw their life away will do so with or without drugs.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#128

Post by DanBC »

superuser2 wrote: post #102
ap22213 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

There is such a thing as responsible, low-level alcohol consumption that doesn't turn into a spiral of addiction and self-destruction. Same with LSD. Not so much with heroin.

> There is such a thing as responsible, low-level alcohol consumption

That responsible low-level use tends to need strong laws to enforce it.

Minimum unit pricing (which only affects the very cheap, poor quality end of the market); tight alcohol and drivng limits; time restrictions on serving alcohol.

See eg the measures that France brought in (less dead people from cirrhosis; less dead and injured from traffic accidents; more profitable drinks industry) to England, which has seen a five fold increase in cirrhosis over the same time.

Alcohol has enormous costs which are mostly hidden because people don't want to accept the truth.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#129

Post by girvo »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #106
mpthrapp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. >just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization. Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.

Yes it is, very much so. The withdrawals are one of the few that can straight up kill you.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#130

Post by girvo »

Treating heroin addiction as a medical problem is why I've been clean for two years, after being an addict for 6. Australia is surprisingly okay on this front all things considered. If I was afraid of being arrested for seeking help, then I can guarantee I wouldn't be here today. An acquaintance overdosed once, and we called an ambulance straight away -- if I had lived in a place where a drug overdose means a police car following the ambulance, he would be dead. The fact it was illegal stopped exactly nobody...

Anyway, I'm glad I got help. Life's too good to throw it away :)

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