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New York’s Shadow Transit

newyorker.com

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Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#121

Post by keithpeter »

lmm wrote: post #96
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't exist in London. The London underground, overground and bus routes are extensive, and the black taxis and minicabs fill in the gap for a moderate fee. You will however find something much like this well established in large cities in Sub-Saharan Africa under the name "Matatu" or "Minibus taxi" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi#South_Africa

I recall a documentary on coaches a bit like this in England. There're something like 20 private coach companies running between London and Luton, and in practice they're segregated by race (I mean, anyone can get on any of them, but they don't). (But yeah, within London the public transport is good enough to push out this kind of thing)

Birmingham UK: I used to see the 'Polska' coach outside Moor St Station every Friday for some years. Haven't seen it recently. Birmingham- Krakov- Warsaw. Always had the idea of catching it for a long weekend...

Some companies run small coaches or minibuses to out of town work areas (e.g. Fort Dunlop) that are hard to get to by public transport. I think they are employer run rather than locally organised.

Very nice piece of writing that article, well done. Could be a book in that.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#122

Post by keithpeter »

gk1 wrote: post #91
davidf18 wrote: post #84

NYC has been making great efforts to improve bus service. They are adding more buses to routes, but they also have a system where you purchase ticket receipts from machines off the busses and can enter through both front and back doors. If you're caught without a receipt, you get a substantial fine.

> "... a system where you purchase ticket receipts from machines off the busses and can enter through both front and back doors." For anyone curious, the point is that this greatly reduces the time spent at each stop. On regular buses, passengers must enter through one door and, one by one, make their payment (with either a Metrocard or cash).

Bus passes? In most UK cities you can buy a photo-id pass for a week or a month and just get on. Most regular users have them.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#123

Post by scott_karana »

ef4 wrote: post #117
scott_karana wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you could price "poor area" fares lower, how is that helpful as a taxi driver? Cab fares don't scale, so working the same time * lower fare = less wage.

No, you price more difficult routes higher , so that they can still be served at all.

Isn't the problem already that the areas in question are of lower economic means, so it's not reasonable to put subsidized transit into them?

I doubt they could afford to pay premium cab fare if they couldn't afford regular buses.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#124

Post by humanrebar »

msutherl wrote: post #119
humanrebar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one data point. One with many special conditions. Calling this a failure of Free Enterprise is to ignore the conditions you are describing -- people weren't free! Violence, other strong-arm tactics, and lack of liability are the opposite of freedom. Of course Free Enterprise doesn't work when basic rights (life, liberty, property, speech, conscience) aren't protected. And for a counter example, New York is ve…

"Freedom" has two different meanings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty

I'm not sure what your point is. A person being harmed due to law-and-order issues in her society lacks liberty under both meanings.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#125

Post by grkvlt »

pyb wrote: post #63
WildUtah wrote: post #16

This is a great story. It's a look at how people really live in a modern city and the border between formal and informal commerce. One of the key research targets in modern sociology and economics and political science is the emergence of institutions like dollar vans. It's very difficult to get a public system to cover every route and part of the city that needs transit, but most city authorities are reluctant to li…

This does not exist in London or Paris.

The UK did have something similar, in Belfast, though.

The black taxi cabs during the 'Troubles' there were sort of similar, I believe. It was a shared ride system, required due to the difficulty of getting around the different parts of the city, with Catholic and Protestant areas divided by the 'peace' walls and a lack of public transport.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#126

Post by grkvlt »

davidf18 wrote: post #82
netcan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has always had 'Sherut' taxi vans. These usually follow regular bus routes and actually pot the bus route's number. The biggest use case is Saturdays, when public busses don't run, but it's not unknown for a 'sherut' van to arrive in some terminal trying to put together a route for any potential travelers sitting around or even to go along a long haul bus route 5 minutes ahead of the official bus and pick up p…

Yes, the "Sherut" taxi vans(that hold only 10 people) in Tel Aviv are great and far more frequent than the buses that travel the routes with fewer stops. There are frequent Sherut taxi vans that travel between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. As soon as there are 10 passengers, they go. I wish NYC had Sherut vans. People would probably taking far fewer taxis and be much greener if it did.

I loved those, but the payment mechanism was confusing as hell the first time - you have to pass your money to the person in front, who passed it on until it got to the driver, and then your change got passed back the same way. People would just tap you on the shoulder and hand you a bunch of shekels...

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#127

Post by ef4 »

scott_karana wrote: post #123
ef4 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you price more difficult routes higher , so that they can still be served at all.

Isn't the problem already that the areas in question are of lower economic means, so it's not reasonable to put subsidized transit into them? I doubt they could afford to pay premium cab fare if they couldn't afford regular buses.

But they're already paying for these underground transit options. So there's clearly some combination of pricing and shared routes at which customers can afford it and the providers can still make a living.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#128

Post by vijucat »

astrec wrote: post #61
vijucat wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Twelve dollars, twelve minutes" (to Mong Kok from Kennedy Town), as a local said to me about the red minibus :-) 12 HKD is 1.5 USD. The route is this on Google Maps, which notes that the distance of approximately 8 km should take "13 min without traffic". So 12 minutes is basically dangerous driving! https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Kennedy+Town,+Hong+Kong/Mong...

$10/22 minutes Causeway Bay --> Stanley. Hang on to your hat!

That's scary, for sure!

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#129

Post by tks2103 »

jrockway wrote: post #13
bennstancil wrote: post #7

It's not just that the immigrant and minority communities served by shadow transit lack access to public transportation - those areas are also severely underserved by cabs. http://blog.modeanalytics.com/taxi-drivers/

I don't think that's racism, I think that's business. Taking someone from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal is pure profit, because it's fast and you're guaranteed a fare once you get to Grand Central. Taking someone from low-density area A to low-density area B is less profitable, so you don't see many cabs in these low-density areas. I see this in action all the time, because I tend to bike late at night when…

Wut?

Cabs pull over, look at you, and drive off if you aren't the right skin color. It happens all the time.

They assume black people live in poor or dangerous or remote neighborhoods.

The law about cabs being required to stop is totally moot. Cabs simply don't pull over if they don't want to.

Go find a black guy and try to hail a cab with him for a few days. The data will really shock you.

Re: New York’s Shadow Transit

#130

Post by jrockway »

tks2103 wrote: post #129
jrockway wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's racism, I think that's business. Taking someone from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal is pure profit, because it's fast and you're guaranteed a fare once you get to Grand Central. Taking someone from low-density area A to low-density area B is less profitable, so you don't see many cabs in these low-density areas. I see this in action all the time, because I tend to bike late at night when…

Wut? Cabs pull over, look at you, and drive off if you aren't the right skin color. It happens all the time. They assume black people live in poor or dangerous or remote neighborhoods. The law about cabs being required to stop is totally moot. Cabs simply don't pull over if they don't want to. Go find a black guy and try to hail a cab with him for a few days. The data will really shock you.

I'm not saying there aren't racist cab drivers. I'm just saying that the data isn't only explained by racism.
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