Live data from Hacker News

Observations of an Internet Middleman

blog.level3.com

121–130 of 180 posts

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Level 3 is ONLY sending the traffic to Comcast that Comcast is requesting; it is THEIR customers who are creating this demand for Level 3's customer's content." This still misses the mark. Netflix creates a service on Level3 that Comcast customers want. So Netflix/Level3 are responsible for making a product that people want to use, and Comcast customers are responsible for wanting to use that product and increasing…

Yet neither seem to accept their share in the cost. It seems like Level3 is ready and willing to go. Comcast is just leveraging their monopoly to get out of standard peering practices. They know that by causing a fuss the lookie loos will show up and say "oh my, a controversy, lets split the difference!" Bonus points if you can work in the phrases "right balance" and "fair share." If it's because it's hard for Level3…

> It seems like Level3 is ready and willing to go.

To go where? Not to their checkbook.

First they mention in the article how "usually" networks agree to upgrade parts of their network to handle additional interconnects, and don't pay service fees to each other.

Then they mention saturated ports, not giving any indication as to whether they have even attempted to expand capacity on their side.

We are also left to believe that this nonspecific, non-detailed post is not only completely genuine, but that it leaves out no details. Giving Level3 the benefit of the doubt, and not going based on my own enterprise peering experiences where Level3 consistently showed the worst reliability and performance, it's clear they're only showing you a small slice of the work involved to agree on peering and put in place the upgrades necessary, on both sides.

> An open letter after giving into their demands?

An open letter after actually spending their share of what they need to invest in the upgrade. Which, it appears, they have not.

> Did you just tell me to go fuck myself?

No... Where did you read that?

> If they do it after giving into Comcast the lookie loos will be all the more ready and willing to pull "compromises" out of their ass that don't solve anything but making them happy with themselves.

....You really don't know the meaning of the word compromise? One of them has to meet the other half way. Ideally both of them would do this at the same time, but in the bizarre reality of this business, both of them are being children, neither wanting to move first, it would seem from this writing. Too bad this is just one tiny public PR stunt and probably not the whole story.

Also, what it would solve is the issue at hand, and it would make everyone - both providers, consumers and customers - happy. If you can't see that, perhaps you have the same narrow-minded political pessimism that's causing this mess to begin with.

This whole letter is thinly-veiled fodder for consumers to bitch at their ISPs with. Even the comparisons, like the ones at the end about industry satisfaction, are just meant to feed into the stereotype of the evil broadband provider. The comparison is ridiculous, because broadband providers are held accountable for every network and server fuckup on the entire internet, as well as the general faults of an aging physical network that spans a giant continent.

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#122
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For once, I am glad to be living in a densely populated European country. We can easily switch ISP's if one decides to pull these kinds of dirty tricks.

While it's true that the average population density of the US is low compared to much of the rest of the world, that is due to including the US's vast empty spaces, mainly in the West. The vast majority of US citizens live in densely populated areas - just like the rest of the First World, only with crappier internet.

The population density is still radically different even when you cut the vast empty spaces between cities in the west.

I live in a midwestern suburb. In the land area that my house uses, you'd have 10-20 families in Madrid. Our idea of dense shopping is a two story mall, not stores under every residential area. And don't get me started with mandated parking spots in strip malls that aren't ever half full.

So unless you live in Manhattan or downtown Chicago, you don't see the same levels of population density.

Single fami

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to think that Rancid, MRTG, & RRD are all fundamentally underpinning of all of these major carriers.

It's not so crazy when you consider a huge portion of peering agreements took place over IRC.

Got any articles on this?

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#124
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For once, I am glad to be living in a densely populated European country. We can easily switch ISP's if one decides to pull these kinds of dirty tricks.

Well, except that the local telco (e.g. BT in the UK) almost certainly has monopoly over the last mile of your connection, regardless of who your ISP is (they rent the last mile from e.g. BT Openreach or maybe TalkTalk) and it's not uncommon for them to refuse to fix congestions at their exchanges (or even admit their presence) for extended periods. So, you know, it's not like it's all utopistic here or something.

Don't Virgin use their own last mile for fibre?

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet neither seem to accept their share in the cost. It seems like Level3 is ready and willing to go. Comcast is just leveraging their monopoly to get out of standard peering practices. They know that by causing a fuss the lookie loos will show up and say "oh my, a controversy, lets split the difference!" Bonus points if you can work in the phrases "right balance" and "fair share." If it's because it's hard for Level3…

> It seems like Level3 is ready and willing to go. To go where? Not to their checkbook. First they mention in the article how "usually" networks agree to upgrade parts of their network to handle additional interconnects, and don't pay service fees to each other. Then they mention saturated ports, not giving any indication as to whether they have even attempted to expand capacity on their side. We are also left to bel…

> not giving any indication as to whether they have even attempted to expand capacity on their side.

I guess you missed this part then:

"Six of those 12 have a single congested port, and we are both (Level 3 and our peer) in the process of making upgrades – this is business as usual and happens occasionally as traffic swings around the Internet as customers change providers."

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your insight, but it really is still a political battle. The reason why is because companies have to work with local governments to get construction permits to build out the access network. There are huge barriers here that prevent individuals and small companies from actually getting that work done. One of those barriers is the fact that even local governments have problems with bribery and corruption (…

Please, show me the bribery and corruption that's creating these political hurdles. Otherwise, that's a strong accusation to be making without proof. If we're talking about good old fashioned lobbying, however, then the fact is that the internet companies have more than enough money to overwhelm the cable companies' lobbying efforts. Lobbyists are up for the highest bidder, after all. Yes, small companies can't affor…

>Google is more profitable than Comcast and TWV combined

Reference, please? When I look up the financials, Google's quarterly gross profits are running about $9B, and Comcast's about $11B.

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your insight, but it really is still a political battle. The reason why is because companies have to work with local governments to get construction permits to build out the access network. There are huge barriers here that prevent individuals and small companies from actually getting that work done. One of those barriers is the fact that even local governments have problems with bribery and corruption (…

Please, show me the bribery and corruption that's creating these political hurdles. Otherwise, that's a strong accusation to be making without proof. If we're talking about good old fashioned lobbying, however, then the fact is that the internet companies have more than enough money to overwhelm the cable companies' lobbying efforts. Lobbyists are up for the highest bidder, after all. Yes, small companies can't affor…

> The regulatory hurdles that Google is demanding relief from are (largely) not the result of lobbying. They're the result of the dysfunction of municipal politics.

Isn't that basically what caust1c said? It looks like the two of you are in violent agreement. :-)

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#128
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's almost always mutually beneficial to peer. But Netflix might be the exception here right? > You can't just ignore the monopoly argument. You're right, I'm just trying to disambiguate it from the net neutrality argument, which doesn't seem to actually be relevant here (as Comcast is treating all traffic through those links poorly, not just Netflix traffic). If it is truly about the monopoly, regulators have dif…

> But Netflix might be the exception here right? Netflix is not infrastructure, they're not peers, they're Level 3 clients.

Actually, that's no longer true under the deal Netflix recently worked out with Comcast:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/02/23...

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#129
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would all be fine and good if Level3 didn't make money from selling bandwidth. Comcast doesn't have to buy a connection from Level3; Level3 will give Comcast a link for free because they know they can turn around and charge their own customers for access to it. Comcast is really just cutting out the middleman here; and that scares Level3.

But they cant cut out the middleman. Comcast doesnt have a direct connection to netflix or anywhere else on the internet. I think Level 3 should straight up shut off their peering agreement with comcast and watch how all the last mile customers blame comcast for the issue, until such time as comcast stops playing games.

> Comcast doesnt have a direct connection to netflix

They do now that a deal has been worked out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/02/23...

Re: Observations of an Internet Middleman

#130

I enjoy seeing those MRTG/RRDtool graphs everywhere. I find it so surreal that $X Billions in infrastructure, that is forwarding $Y Billion of internet traffic. All monitored by a single tool created by one guy from Switzerland. Since this is HN: yes I realize that there has been substantial work subsequently, and that cacti/munin/nagios etc.. are more commonly used.

It's crazy to think that Rancid, MRTG, & RRD are all fundamentally underpinning of all of these major carriers.

What's crazy about it?
Post reply on HN