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Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

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Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#121

Post by npizzolato »

yeukhon wrote: post #48
Blahah wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whatever Eich does in his time is irrelevant Of course it isn't. If he was backdooring JS crypto libraries for the NSA, or shooting orphans, or selling crack, that would be seriously inappropriate behaviour and he would lose his job for it. Many people might consider it inappropriate to be fighting against gay marriage - it's not just a political issue, it's a moral one.

Many people might consider it inappropriate to be fighting against gay marriage - it's not just a political issue, it's a moral one. Yet, we are forcing everyone to take a stand on this "moral" issue.

No one is being forced to take a stand. Eich chose to take his own stand by donating $1000 in support of Prop 8. It is completely fair to judge him for that action.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#122

Post by samelawrence »

zorpner wrote: post #78
pvnick wrote: post #63

I don't know what it is about gay marriage that draws people in to this ridiculous witch hunt. I'm neutral on the issue because I feel it's complicated like every other polarizing topic, but to a lot of folks it's solid black-and-white, good-vs-evil. But the pro-gay-marriage crowd seems to go beyond that. To them, it's so black-and-white that one's not even allowed to hold the other view. These people don't even ackn…

Why would anyone "acknowledge the legitimacy" of beliefs that would e.g. prevent them from visiting their spouse on their deathbed? There's no middle ground here. Also, it's worth trying not to use the term "witch hunt" to describe attacks on a group which has held an oppressive majority for hundreds of years and which is actively continuing to attempt to deny the rights of a minority. The analogy does not hold.

The majority / minority argument does not hold. Oppressed minorities are not always in the right. Arguments around gay marriage / politics / Brendan need to step back and argue the issues, not the size or relative social power of the groups involved.

I happen to agree with your side of the issue, but let's talk about the issue, not make it a David and Goliath straw man debate. The term "witch hunt" may or may not apply. As an example, we might say that during the French Revolution, the proletariat (oppressed majority, wat?) went on a witch hunt against aristocracy (minority holding majority power) and members of the royal court, regardless of their fault.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#123

Post by vsviridov »

pessimizer wrote: post #43
vsviridov wrote: post #10

"By using Arabic numerals you are helping terrorists." As long as Mozilla products do not feature a "Not to be used by gays" warning, whatever Eich does in his time is irrelevant. He's free to spend his money in any way he likes. What prevented the authors of this article to spend $1000 to counterbalance Eich's contribution if they are so concerned?

Because it's not about the $1000 (and you didn't honestly think it was.) With your prescription of discriminated against minorities offsetting the donations of bigots to parties who would fortify or extend that discrimination, gay people would also have to worry about bankruptcy. There's at least 5 bigots for each gay person.

It's only a matter of time. Maybe universal gay marriage will not be achieved in my lifetime but it will be achieved. If people have power to bring it closer with their efforts or monetary contributions - they are welcome to do so, but it is still quite inevitable. This topic might hold relevance and controversy for now, but ultimately - it is not. Just another footnote in history.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#124

Post by transitionality »

Blahah wrote: post #111
transitionality wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly illegal to fire someone over that opinion, yes.

It depends entirely on his contract - I'd expect most CEOs to have a clause about their conduct causing harm to the organisation. Even if not, it's legal to convince someone to leave, which is what usually happens in public embarrassment cases.

It's illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of their political stance. Nothing you can say will ever change that.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#125

Post by sentenza »

zorpner wrote: post #78
pvnick wrote: post #63

I don't know what it is about gay marriage that draws people in to this ridiculous witch hunt. I'm neutral on the issue because I feel it's complicated like every other polarizing topic, but to a lot of folks it's solid black-and-white, good-vs-evil. But the pro-gay-marriage crowd seems to go beyond that. To them, it's so black-and-white that one's not even allowed to hold the other view. These people don't even ackn…

Why would anyone "acknowledge the legitimacy" of beliefs that would e.g. prevent them from visiting their spouse on their deathbed? There's no middle ground here. Also, it's worth trying not to use the term "witch hunt" to describe attacks on a group which has held an oppressive majority for hundreds of years and which is actively continuing to attempt to deny the rights of a minority. The analogy does not hold.

A general word of warning. (Disclaimer I'm for gay marriage, but that is not the point of the following text.)

I have been subscribed to the main mailing list of the German Pirate party for four years now and from this very rich data set I can give you the following piece of insight:

Discussions about LGBT issues will invariably degenerate into pure horribleness. It might not be obvious to most people why this should be the case, but believe me, if there is only one single troll that knows one of the big red buttons to push, the whole thing goes off the rails.

I'm reeeally uncertain if I should do this, but to illustrate my point, I'm now going to describe one of those buttons: Many of the LG and B people are not really comfortable with the T people (and some are quite T-phobic!). A troll that identifies one of those anti-T LGB posters can "craft" a post that destroys any room that might have been there for meaningful discussion.

At least this has been my experience on that particular mailing list. While the conversational level of the HN community is fortunately well above that of said list, I already see some pre-pathologies which indicate that HN might not be immune to the LGBT-shitstorm-effect.

My personal feelings about this particular instance, without knowing any details are this: Guy I've never heared of before with anti gay-marriage history becomes head of Mozilla? Dude, show some heart-felt sensibility for the issue, tell everybody that either you've changed your views or that at least your professional actions in this regard will follow the broader community attitude, and then let's move ahead to other issues.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#126

Post by huslage »

It's not like he hasn't been at the company all along in a management capacity. I don't see how this changes anything or why anyone should choose now to retaliate as opposed to any other arbitrary time.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#127

Post by wpietri »

transitionality wrote: post #103
drhayes9 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrimination of what kind? They are not publishing an app in an app store. Are they discriminating against Mozilla? Are they blocking Mozilla browsers from their site? Are people being persecuted, imprisoned, or killed for using Firefox? Are they working to put Eich in an internment camp based on his beliefs? The word "bigotry" is a very big stick to swing against two people who could be killed in many parts of the…

They are actively working to disenfranchise Brendan Eich of his employment. They are doing this on the basis of his political stance. This is bigotry. They are bigots. What's worse, they're hypocritical bigots, because they're trying to pass this off as some sort of anti-bigotry stance. All social justice is like this. It breaks down under the merest of scrutinty.

I believe Eich has and will continue to have his franchise. Voting, you see, being one of the civil rights guaranteed to us. Like marriage, it turns out.

Being a fancy CEO, though? That's not a civil right. Especially not if attempting to deprive gay people of their civil rights makes it hard to perform an important function of that fancy CEO job: the recruitment and retention of staff.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#128

Post by transitionality »

drhayes9 wrote: post #120
transitionality wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are actively working to disenfranchise Brendan Eich of his employment. They are doing this on the basis of his political stance. This is bigotry. They are bigots. What's worse, they're hypocritical bigots, because they're trying to pass this off as some sort of anti-bigotry stance. All social justice is like this. It breaks down under the merest of scrutinty.

That's a very reductionist point of view that doesn't seem useful as an intellectual tool. Bigotry is not just a description of actions people take but the context in which they take them. Eich, in the context of this specific economic transaction, doesn't belong to a marginalized group. These men who are withdrawing their app do. Eich has taken direct action against them and they are responding. In this case, I beli…

The social justice warrior definition of discrimination is itself bigoted, because it claims it's impossible to be bigoted against men, white people, hetero people, etc.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#129

Post by chrismonsanto »

thinkpad20 wrote: post #85
chrismonsanto wrote: post #44

I support your decision to boycott, although I personally disagree with it. I wish you would give Brendan the chance to repent. First of all, and most importantly, it's unlikely they are going to shitcan him as CEO. Second, he has not spoken about his motivations for donating to Prop 8. If he was doing so in pursuit of abolishing the marriage institution altogether, I consider that very different than doing it becaus…

> I wish you would give Brendan the chance to repent. They have, and he hasn't. This is mentioned in the article.

From the article:

> He has not, and said he will not, so it’s too late in my mind. Any public change of opinion at this time would only be to ensure his new powerful position at the Mozilla foundation.

I disagree with this, hence my post. I think if he puts his money where his mouth is, that good undoes his past failings. I don't think he is going to use Mozilla as a vehicle for promoting homophobia. Therefore, I see two options:

1) he leaves, Mozilla doesn't contribute to societal homophobia, and there is no monetary contribution.

2) he stays, Mozilla doesn't contribute to societal homophobia, and there is a monetary contribution.

(Option #3 where he leaves and also makes a monetary contribution is extremely unlikely to happen, so I will not list it here)

I am admittedly very pragmatic about these issues. I don't care if he is shamed by being forced out of the company. I don't think that really helps.

Re: Goodbye, Firefox Marketplace

#130

Post by ndarilek »

judah wrote: post #50

This is definitely one of those moral fashions [1] that Paul Graham wrote about: "What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even ki…

Wow, understatement of the decade. Is that also true of the folks who wouldn't leave Woolworth's lunch counters a few decades back? I don't know how you, personally, feel on this issue, but designating people who love each other as second-class citizens isn't a mere fassion. It's a fucking atrocity, no less.
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