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Dogecoin market manipulation?

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Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#121

Post by wmf »

jeremyjh wrote: post #33
socillion wrote: post #14

I'm not sure why it's on HN, but it's real. It was originally happening in the public channel #dogecoin-market on Freenode but was then moved to the private channel #marketmakers, which seems to have spurred people to start sharing it everywhere since now it's private. Wolong is the guy who brought the Dogecoin price to where it is now by investing a ton of money into it, and due to that and some charisma he's attrac…

Why are you sure this is legal (everywhere)? No it isn't regulated by the SEC, but that does not mean that it isn't fraud.

Let me remind people who think the SEC doesn't care of the case of Trendon Shavers: http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/137... Market manipulation isn't as clear-cut as a ponzi scheme, but the man might pay attention if enough people get burned.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#122

Post by wmf »

Marazan wrote: post #84
kolev wrote: post #70

Gee, I totally get somebody putting money into Bitcoin or mining Litecoin, but the rest are honest scamcoins (or at least - circuscoins). If you mine, then it's probably okay, although it still costs you real money (energy, hardware, opportunity cost, etc.), but to put money (fiat or bitcoins) into it - you need to be completely out of your mind!

What makes Bitcoin and Litecoin not scam coins?

There's an argument that the world needs one cryptocurrency but not two. Therefore the first one (Bitcoin) is not a scam, but all others are.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#123

Post by im3w1l »

joosters wrote: post #100
jbellis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crucial distinction is that buying shares is not a zero sum game; it's possible for all investors to "win." This is not the case in gambling or commodities markets; for me to win, someone else has to lose.

Why is that different from share deals? There's a buyer and a seller... if one of them wins, the other by definition must lose. Call whatever you do 'investing' if it makes you happy, but as I said before, you can replicate financial 'investments' with spread-betting 'bets' and you will make the same gains and losses.

>if one of them wins, the other by definition must lose.

No. If you sell shares to pay for living expenses you do not lose. If you dilute your shares to raise capital to make your remaining shares worth more you do not lose.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#124

Post by clarkm »

al2o3cr wrote: post #50
XorNot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be fraud? It's perfectly legal if it's not specifically regulated as a financial market. Tons of firms do things quite like this - over-the-counter derivatives are rife with various market manipulations.

Pointing at a bigger gang of crooks and saying, "see, they're doing it too" doesn't make anybody involved less of a crook... To me, the whole situation is an incredible demonstration of why "free markets solve everything correctly" is only (even potentially) true as N_participants -> infinity - and even more so a direct lesson in how thoroughly a "market" can fail when it's too small...

Why does this make them crooks? This whole thing is just a very convoluted form of gambling -- it's a game. If you bluff when playing poker, does that make you a crook?

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#125

Post by adrianwaj »

socillion wrote: post #14

I'm not sure why it's on HN, but it's real. It was originally happening in the public channel #dogecoin-market on Freenode but was then moved to the private channel #marketmakers, which seems to have spurred people to start sharing it everywhere since now it's private. Wolong is the guy who brought the Dogecoin price to where it is now by investing a ton of money into it, and due to that and some charisma he's attrac…

more logs: http://pastebin.com/cFfxW7xh

from the manifesto: "there are always trolls that add absolutely zero value to the community" -- you said it Wolong.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#126

Post by Helianthus »

al2o3cr wrote: post #50
XorNot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it be fraud? It's perfectly legal if it's not specifically regulated as a financial market. Tons of firms do things quite like this - over-the-counter derivatives are rife with various market manipulations.

Pointing at a bigger gang of crooks and saying, "see, they're doing it too" doesn't make anybody involved less of a crook... To me, the whole situation is an incredible demonstration of why "free markets solve everything correctly" is only (even potentially) true as N_participants -> infinity - and even more so a direct lesson in how thoroughly a "market" can fail when it's too small...

I think the relevant distinction here is that the 'crooks' we're discussing aren't likely to be held legally accountable for their activities.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#127

Post by clarkm »

SwellJoe wrote: post #23

The amusing/sad thing is that so many folks don't realize that only a few of the "market movers" actually profit. Those who don't have the inside inside track, will lose when those who make the call to buy and sell. The whole "we move the market" thing is accurate...but, the suckers who think they're part of moving the market are just the people giving money to "-wolong-". I have a hard time feeling sorry for people…

The real winners in these schemes are the exchanges. Since they profit from every trade that's made, anything that increases volume and volatility is good for their books.

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#128

Post by Mikeb85 »

scotty79 wrote: post #80
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really hope no one trades actual markets believing they can 'pick' equities. I do and make a lot of money doing it. It's not about picking equities per se, it's about finding good trading opportunities - every equity provides good and bad trades, depending on a multitude of factors. You can play any stock both long and short....

What you do, is living in tornado zone and counting each day without tornado as a win attributed to our skill on picking and swapping houses in the zone.

A think a more apt analogy would be comparing it to something like poker. Yes it's risky, but if you know how to navigate markets, it's a controlled risk, in which you can come out ahead more often than not...

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#129

Post by shitgoose »

rtpg wrote: post #49
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Meh. The only reason the price is as low as it is currently is that A) $850,000 needs to be added to the market every single day just to keep the price stable B) Coinbase et al. literally can't convert dollars to BTC fast enough. The situation is similar to how whenever Apple releases a new iPhone, it takes literally months until there is enough supply to match the demand. While this market manipulation is blatantly…

can you explain why almost a million dollars needs to be injected into the market to keep the price stable?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

Re: Dogecoin market manipulation?

#130

Post by cynicalkane »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #34
vijayboyapati wrote: post #12

This illustrates a simple idea in economics: cartels are hard to maintain because participants will look out for their own self-interest.

I don't know the literature, and what assumptions they make in there, but out in the real world the lightbulb cartel lasted from 1924 till 1942 or thereabouts. The keyword to look for is "Phoebus Cartel". Also, recently in the news: the Silicon Valley wage-fixing cartel. They may be hard to maintain, but they do spring up and may exert power while alive.

The Silicon Valley thing was no-poaching agreements between a few companies, not an explicit cartel. Which is bad but not nearly as bad.
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