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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#121

Post by blahedo »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Or they aren't (over)thinking any of that above, and to most people it is a funny play on words since the tool is related to 'man' pages. I'm going to email the LKML immediately and petition that 'fsck' needs to be renamed to 'love', because I don't 'fsck', I make 'love' and I don't appreciate the negative stereotype that it implies I am some sort of inhuman non-lovemaking monster whilst going about my daily sysadmin…

> ...aren't thinking any of that ... funny play on words

That might well be true; my point is that at some point their individual thoughts don't matter, because they're referencing a larger meme.

I'll add that if it were just a funny play on words, we might expect to see a name like "boy" or "guy" or "son" or "person" or any number of other names that are, ha-ha, kind of like "man". The fact that "bro" was picked was pretty obviously a reference to the whole "brogramming" thing.

"man" pages were never really a problem in this vein, because everybody knew that despite the surface similarity (which gave rise to a variety of jokes), "man" was short for "manual", and "fsck" (which also gives rise to some funny jokes) is really short for "file system check" or something like that. "bro" is short for "brogramm(er|ing)". Your attempt to reduce my argument to absurdity in your second paragraph falls completely short because of the total lack of actual parallel to the situation we're really discussing.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#122

Post by justizin »

blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

I absolutely agree. I don't think the creator intended to create a constant reminder of an unbalanced subculture, but I think that a similar tool named differently would be more widely used. As a dude, I would feel awkward installing bro, honestly.

That said, it looks fucking handy so I think I'm gonna. ;)

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#123

Post by skybrian »

At this point it's not about taking offense (I think everyone understands the pun now, and it's funny the first time.) We can assume good intentions but it's still okay to say this is bad marketing.

From a marketing perspective, giving your product a name some people hate is polarizing. It might get attention in the short term and is certainly memorable, but in the longer term isn't a great move because they'll cringe every time they use it or have to talk about it and the complaints will continue. So why not pick something else?

Examples of badly named projects that were renamed, just to show it can be done and it's not a big deal: forplay -> PlayN testacular -> karma

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#124

Post by vezzy-fnord »

Clearly this is very offensive, exclusionary and misogynistic. I mean, it's not like software has ever been named based on word play-oh, wait...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_%28Scheme_implementatio...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_Orifice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagios

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAME

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_%28protocol%29

Then it's very common for forks of other software, or software that is meant to compliment another program, to humorously reference the original program. The examples are numerous.

"Brogrammer" is a very recent neologism that originated out of a perceived frat culture amongst primarily (surprise) web developers, but it's still mostly used to describe a hypothetical bottom of the barrel person, rather than any seriously observed overtaking of programming by immature frat boys.

"Bro" dates far before that. I think it's perfectly valid to use it as a pun on "man", which originally stood for "manual", yes. But that's how word play works. The GNU Project hosts jokes like these on their site, too. I haven't heard of anyone complaining.

If you can't stand it, alias it. But being dramatic about it is ridiculous.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#127

Post by gruseom »

Alex3917 wrote: post #92
gruseom wrote: post #73

I've often wished for something like this. Most of us learn by example. I fear that the humor in it, much as I like humor, is a mistake. First, it comes across as a gender troll. Any technical attention the tool receives will be smothered by that avalanche. (Exhibit A: this thread.) More importantly, it impedes how the tool needs to work: get to the point immediately and cut everything else. Man pages may be Byzantin…

> I'd say the same about the upvoting and downvoting stuff that appears in there: it's extraneous and distracting. It's a sorting mechanism. This is basically like Urban Dictionary but for Unix. But yeah, it would be nice to hide the instructions after every single entry.

I fear I am dismissing it too quickly, probably because of gender troll dread syndrome.

If it works, it will be useful.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#128

Post by wonderzombie »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Or they aren't (over)thinking any of that above, and to most people it is a funny play on words since the tool is related to 'man' pages. I'm going to email the LKML immediately and petition that 'fsck' needs to be renamed to 'love', because I don't 'fsck', I make 'love' and I don't appreciate the negative stereotype that it implies I am some sort of inhuman non-lovemaking monster whilst going about my daily sysadmin…

"fsck" is also distinctly non-gendered and it is not dated. It's actually kind of clever because it's not in the least an obvious name for a filesystem check, of all things.

"Bro" is painfully obvious, gendered, and dated. It comes from a rather specific subculture/zeitgeist.

Yes, I realize I'm bikeshedding. No, I'm not proud. Yes, it's hard to come up with good names.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#129

Post by nsfmc »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Or they aren't (over)thinking any of that above, and to most people it is a funny play on words since the tool is related to 'man' pages. I'm going to email the LKML immediately and petition that 'fsck' needs to be renamed to 'love', because I don't 'fsck', I make 'love' and I don't appreciate the negative stereotype that it implies I am some sort of inhuman non-lovemaking monster whilst going about my daily sysadmin…

i think the more subtle point, which you're free to disagree with, is that the word 'bro' has a ton of baggage around it from the offest. the word 'man' isn't chosen because it's trying to remind people who need help of the patriarchy's stranglehold on information, it's just short for manual, which i think most people can stomach.

If you wanted to parody 'manual', you could name the command 'rtfm' or 'automatic' or 'auto' or 'otto', but 'bro' has a ton of dodgy cultural baggage around it. Naming things is hard and if you want proof of how this can be problematic, look no further than this open source Buffer replacement here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4484526

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#130

Post by fleitz »

belluchan wrote: post #32
lhnz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brogrammer is just a stereotype, brah. Not everybody that wears shades, doesn't take life seriously and speaks with an accent is misogynistic, crass, less mature than you and difficult to depend on. That's not really fair. To a bro the word just means 'friend' - somebody that's dependable, fun to hang out with and that won't over complicate things. Those descriptions seem more in line with the tool.

I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender. It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. You're not taking this serious. I'm guessing because you haven't any idea of how soul crushing it can be to see this kind of behavior in the workplace when you're a…

Thankfully we live in an age where gender is independent of sex so anyone can be a bro if they want to.
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