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Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

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Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#121

A lot of people say SF/SV/etc is terrible because it's full of Californians, but I've lived all over the country and known lots of people from lots of states and I'd rather live among Californians than Missourians or (god forbid) Texans.

I work with a Texan. Really nice guy and smarter then me but he never talks down to me. He phrases his suggestions as questions and the thicker he lays on the drawl the more likely it is that his opinion will turn out to be good advice.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cold winters always gave me time to do more coding so I could enjoy the summer more, but I'm in North Dakota these days so I might have a odd view of cold.

I really don't get the aversion to cold weather either. It is part of the reason us "northerners" read so much. When it gets to -24F out, aka you can get frostbite underneath clothes, you tend to say well lets just sit inside and do stuff or read/etc... Cold isn't bad, cold+wind, that is the killer. I met a woman from socal that moved here recently. It was about 20F out and all I had on was a sweater. She looked like…

Yep, cold + wind is what kills you. I've always said North Dakota is quite good at killing the stupid or unlucky[1]. Oil has brought a lot of people from southern states and I worry a lot about their safety. This weekend we should hit -26F before wind chill off a 20-30 mph wind. Good time to stay in and code.

1) for the love of what you hold holy do not go too fast on icy roads (that means you SUV driver). One unlucky moment like sliding a foot or two in front of a semi will be it. Don't leave that as an Xmas present.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#123
post #72
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in the midwest, one of the main things keeping me from moving back (besides particularities of jobs/etc.) is the weather. Really really cold winters, hot & humid summers. Nice springs and autumns, though, if I could arrange to be somewhere else Dec-Feb and June-Aug. I'd pay a premium to live somewhere with a longer "nice to be outdoors" season, though how much of a premium is a good question. I actual…

Oh, really? I'm living in Scandinavia and looking to move elsewhere. Midwest was one of my options, and I had never thought winters were so bad over there!

I've lived in Finland and spent time in Sweden in the winter and I grew up in Ohio (went to college in Michigan) and I can tell you that the winters in the midwest vary greatly depending on which part you live in. Finland and Sweden both had longer, colder, winters than Ohio does, for example. Chicago will get super cold and windy but the winters still aren't as long as in Scandinavia.

Basically, much of the midwest has shorter winters but some parts of it have equally harsh or even harsher (the Dakotas, for example) weather. Northern Michigan is quite a bit like Finland, for example, while the lower portion of Michigan is nothing at all like Finland.

Totally depends on where you go, even within the midwest.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#124

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

Heh, and around that time, it was in the high 60s here in Southern California. Sure, we don't have enough water to sustain ourselves, but it's winter and shorts weather.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#125
post #97
post #18

The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind. San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San F…

Your comment about "artisinal grilled cheese" earned my upvote. Who knew such a thing existed? Better yet: why?

Some people are looking for places to spend their relatively-high incomes. Ditto for other, oddball things that have come along, of late, like super-expensive shaving equipment (first thing that came to mind).

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#126
post #5

St. Louis is cheap, but it's cheap for a reason. If you think 6th and Market is bad, take a stroll through East St. Louis. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the country. Violent crime is on the rise. [1] Basically, it's one of the most dangerous cities in the country. If that sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you'd probably be better off just moving your startup to Oakland and maintaining a connection to the…

Having grown up in St. Louis, I will say that the statistics about violence are highly skewed. Yes, the rates of violent crime in East/North St. Louis are extremely high. However, it's not terribly difficult to avoid these areas (unless you're really into strip clubs). The suburbs and most of the rest of the city are no less safe than comparable areas in the bay area.

I grew up in the area too, and moved back a few years ago. People often give me weird looks when I say I live on the Illinois side, assuming I'm living next to Pop's or something. The Illinois side is all really nice farmland if you just go a few miles out from the city. That is one of the nice things about Saint Louis. I grew up on several acres of land, my dad was able to commute to downtown in less than 30 minutes, and he was able to afford that on a mid-level government employee salary.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#127
post #97
post #18

The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind. San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San F…

Your comment about "artisinal grilled cheese" earned my upvote. Who knew such a thing existed? Better yet: why?

I assure you we have artisinal grilled cheese here in St. Louis as well:

http://www.bigcheesestl.com/

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#128
post #45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which brings us to a very important point for all the young programmer dudes: when you all crowd into the same tiny city and bid up the rents into the stratosphere, your available dating pool shrinks to a puddle (yet another consequence of the skewed gender balance in tech. sigh.) All the pour-over coffee in the world doesn't make you happy when you can't get a date, and those artisan cocktails are far less cute whe…

Hah. I don't think you'll find a city in the world that's more highly optimized for gay men...but that was true before the tech boom, too.

castro is really pretty small; I think you're better off as a gay man in nyc.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#129
post #23

> If you’re trying to bootstrap, being based in San Francisco is awful. Especially if you have a family. I rented a four bedroom house in a great neighborhood in Sacramento that was a bike ride from Midtown for $2900/mo. We ended up buying a bigger house in the same neighborhood for even less per month. No commute, food is cheap, etc. The cost savings are enormous, and I'm sure it's more expensive than St. Louis... Y…

I know this isn't exactly the best metric, but the demand for programmers in St. Louis seems very low. When I look at Craigslist I see a couple Java jobs, a couple PHP jobs and even one godforsaken VB.net job. Even Jeff Atwood doesn't use VB.net. So I'm doubtful that it would be easier to keep the contracts coming in while in St. Louis.

It seems if you're half-good at just about any language, you'll get an email a week from a recruiter from a decent company. Definitely not as many startups, but many interesting projects to choose from. And remote work while living in a (comparative) mansion in the Midwest is a good selling point :)

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#130
I used to live in St. Louis and worked at a startup that was located in downtown (right on Washington Ave) 13 years ago. Back then downtown was dead after 5pm, as everyone left to go home back in the suburbs and not much of a night life in the city.

Recently, I went back to visit for the first time in over 10 years. I was amazed that there was a night life, and families would go out to eat in the city! It seems to be turning it self around well, but I am sure there are more hurdles to make it even safer.

In addition to it being easier to get funding [1], it sounds like St. Louis is really looking to be a good spot for a startup in the US.

1: http://archgrants.org/

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