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Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

nytimes.com

121–130 of 199 posts

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a combination of hubris and intentional ignorance on the part of OP and others like him. It's really fascinating to see otherwise intelligent people completely unable to challenge their own beliefs about the nature of the world. Is Obama simply reacting to new information he has been made privy to since becoming the president? Is it possible that there are genuine threats to America that are not made public? Is…

Your comment reads like some kind of passage from scripture, offering humble ignorance of reality and blindly placing trust in some entity to take care of your best interest. In the real world, it's clear that institutions become corrupt. Enron is one example. So is GroupOn. So is the NSA. I suppose you think we should not let our faith be shaken by the revelation that corruption has been found in some NSA programs.…

You haven't actually considered that the system is reasonable as it is. Which is the hubris that I'm talking about.

I don't blindly trust institutions. But I also don't blindly distrust institutions when the system they perpetuate has merit.

Life is quite good in America if you're in the middle class as compared to the standards of living in the past and around the world.

I'm careful with my judgements as I understand that I don't fully understand all of the realities and circumstances and interests at play. I can only look at the result, which from my perspective is quite good relative to what I know about the world today and in the past.

Are there serious problems in society? Yes.

I went through a stage of cynicism when I was in middle school through high school so I can appreciate your perspective.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#122
post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Usually we at least get to learn about candidates' fundamental views before electing them. A pro-life candidate, for example, isn't suddenly going to change that view after taking office. Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with th…

>Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with the fundamental beliefs that he told the country he held prior to his election.

Bush promised a humble foreign policy with no nation building. He had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road. And I'm going to prevent that."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_presidential_cam...

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#123

What I'd really like to know is what process does the President-elect endure that turns him into an alien lizard from hell? I mean, seriously .. its like black and white with Obama. Pre-Presidentiality, Obama was real. After-President'ness, he's become some obscure caricature of all other Presidents who came before him.. So is there some sort of secret Presidential chamber that all the past Presidents get to donate t…

> What I'd really like to know is what process does the President-elect endure that turns him into an alien lizard from hell?

A Truman-era bureaucrat coined the phrase, "where you stand depends on where you sit."

When Obama was outside the executive branch and had only a year of Senate experience before embarking upon his presidential campaign, he had a very different set of interests and responsibilities. As a junior, back-benching senator with no Washington DC experience, Obama had very few capabilities or political capital. People who are weak decry the power of the strong and seek to limit it.

When Obama became president and was given responsibility not just for Illinois, but for the United States and its allies, he assumed a very different set of responsibilities, interests, and capabilities. Obama entered office with a tremendous amount of political capital and the full panoply of executive branch powers at his disposal. The powerful do not generally seek to limit their own power or to accept limits placed upon them.

This happens to every candidate-turned-president, but with some it's more extreme than others. Some presidents enter office with executive branch experience, e.g. Bush Sr. or Eisenhower. Some enter with tremendous political capital and experience with DC politics, like LBJ a.k.a. the "master of the Senate." The transformation is not so great with these presidents.

Some enter with almost no political experience whatsoever, like Obama. The subsequent transformation is much more jarring, because the change in their power is much starker.

> I mean, seriously .. its like black and white with Obama. Pre-Presidentiality, Obama was real. After-President'ness, he's become some obscure caricature of all other Presidents who came before him..

On the contrary, pre-presidential Obama was fake. He was in campaign mode from his entrance on the national scene in 2004 through 2008. You cannot honestly believe that the campaign image of a politician is the "real" version of that person.

Presidential Obama is the real Obama. Abraham Lincoln said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." This is who Obama is. There's a reason why presidents seem to feature greater continuity than change, and part of that reason is that the responsibilities of the office don't change according to the president, rather the president must change in order to perform the responsibilities of the office. Many wildly different personalities can occupy the office, but the office structures and constrains those personalities.

Idealists often have a consequence-free vision of what presidents ought to do (a "deontological" ethic). But politics does not work that way. Max Weber contrasted the (deontological) "ethic of ultimate ends" with the "ethic of responsibility" in his essay "Politics as a Vocation," which I urge you to read. http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/ethos/Weber-vocation.pdf

Responsibility is a different ethical standard than what individuals on their own would be held to. And what an individual ought to do is very often different from what someone responsible for the lives of others ought to do. And the actions a responsible political figure ought to undertake are often morally repugnant to the private individual. But it is a mistake to judge the leader by the standards one would use to judge a private citizen. Weber says as much:

> "It follows that as far as a person's actions are concerned, it is not true that nothing but good comes from good and nothing but evil from evil, but rather quite frequently the opposite is the case. Anyone who does not realize this is in fact a mere child in political matters."

Isaiah Berlin in his famous article on Machiavelli (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1971/nov/04/a-speci...) puts it even more starkly:

> If you object to the political methods recommended because they seem to you morally detestable, if you refuse to embark upon them because they are, to use Ritter’s word, “erschreckend,” too frightening, Machiavelli has no answer, no argument. In that case you are perfectly entitled to lead a morally good life, be a private citizen (or a monk), seek some corner of your own. But, in that event, you must not make yourself responsible for the lives of others or expect good fortune; in a material sense you must expect to be ignored or destroyed.

> To be a physician is to be a professional, ready to burn, to cauterize, to amputate; if that is what the disease requires, then to stop halfway because of personal qualms, or some rule unrelated to your art and its technique, is a sign of muddle and weakness, and will always give you the worst of both worlds. And there are at least two worlds: each of them has much, indeed everything, to be said for it; but they are two and not one. One must learn to choose between them and, having chosen, not look back.

> There is more than one world, and more than one set of virtues: confusion between them is disastrous. One of the chief illusions caused by ignoring this is the Platonic-Hebraic-Christian view that virtuous rulers create virtuous men. This, according to Machiavelli, is not true. Generosity is a virtue, but not in princes. A generous prince will ruin the citizens by taxing them too heavily, a mean prince (and Machiavelli does not say that meanness is a good quality in private men) will save the purses of the citizens and so add to public welfare. A kind ruler—and kindness is a virtue—may let intriguers and stronger characters dominate him, and so cause chaos and corruption.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#124
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not current and it's not a crisis. It's working exactly how it was designed to work. We changed, not them. The Internet disrupted the popular perception of democracy by creating a massive global communication channel that is not under the control of the people in power.

> a massive global communication channel that is not under the control of the people in power. They're working their hardest to correct that horrible mistake.

[deleted]

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#125
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a really sad and poor way to concern yourself with how our society governs itself.

There's just no way to do it from the bottom. All these protests, all this (sl)activism, it doesn't do anything. You either need to dedicate your life to politics and get into the club and start working from the inside, and pray some holy fucking deity that there are others like you, or nothing will change. Maybe severe violent revolt but I literally don't ever see that happening. There isn't enough time in the day t…

How do you think that movements to legalize marijuana or the increasing acceptance of same-sex marriage work? These were bottom-up political movements.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#126
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a massive global communication channel that is not under the control of the people in power. They're working their hardest to correct that horrible mistake.

Net neutrality isn't dead because the people asked for it

I'm not so worried about net neutrality. I mean it's easy enough for the average person to eventually understand the importance of all traffic being treated the same.

Copyright extremism (and 'protecting' children - Firewall of Cameron) is what we should be worried about. Our rulers have chosen copyright as their 'Trojan horse' of choice [1] for regaining the arbitrary censorship powers that they once enjoyed. Sadly, most people can't come to terms with the importance of copyright reform in the digital age. They fail to understand that copyright has always been used by rulers as means of controlling the rhetoric and preventing 'non-aligned' publishers from reaching large audiences [2].

[1] http://torrentfreak.com/the-copyright-monopoly-was-created-a... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#127
post #53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If theres ever a time to do the right thing, it's in the President's second term: it's all downhill, what the pundits say doesn't matter to re-electability, since there is none (unless you plan on going to another office later on...)

> (unless you plan on going to another office later on...) Just curious, has a president ever done that?

Andrew Johnson won election to the Senate shortly before his death, in 1875. This was after several attempts to win political office in his post-Presidency years had failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Johnson#Post-presidency

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#128
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. " You've just described the current crisis of representational democracy.

I believe it's high time to repeal the 17th Amendment and return a fair bit of power to the states. This would ease the democracy crisis and decentralize some of the power from D.C.

How does the indirect election of Senators help democracy?

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#129

What I'd really like to know is what process does the President-elect endure that turns him into an alien lizard from hell? I mean, seriously .. its like black and white with Obama. Pre-Presidentiality, Obama was real. After-President'ness, he's become some obscure caricature of all other Presidents who came before him.. So is there some sort of secret Presidential chamber that all the past Presidents get to donate t…

Power corrupts. Simple as that.

Anyone that manages to get to be in the race for the presidents is so irredeemably corrupt they shouldn't be running. It's like top CEO of financial firms. You don't get to the top by being a nice guy. You get it by being the biggest shark.

PS. I'm reminded of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzaccio In which a young idealistic person wants to end tyranny of his cousin. To achieve that he decides to gets close to the tyrannt, working inside, helping him and engaging in debaucheries. Eventually he becomes more and more like his cousin. Finally he decides to end his cousins life not because he thinks that it is the right thing to do, or because he believe that it will bring change (he considers the entire city irredeemably corrupt) but because he wants to atone for his sins.

He deposes his cousin and then goes around Florence, announcing to the noble men that he has killed the tyrant and that people are now free to rebel. People just ignore him.

I think this depicts life of pretty much politician, except they don't have the balls to commit their original intent, they just wallow in power and do what's worst for everyone.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#130
post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

> I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign.

The evidence during his time in office and the battles he has chosen to fight from the White House suggests that the view he expressed during the campaign about the critical importance of health care reform toward a more universal system is, in fact, one that he holds in office.

On a less policy and more meta-political level there are, I would say, quite a few indications that his frequently expressed view that people who want change must "be the change [they] want" and not rely on getting some figure in office and then expecting change to magically happen on its own is also a belief he holds honestly in office.

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