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Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

cdixon.org

121–130 of 178 posts

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#121
Kind of off topic, but I have some questions related to transaction fees.

1) Is there a "reference value" in terms of how much transaction fee you have to pay to make a payment from one bitcoin/altcoin address to another?

2) Is there a "message" payload that would allow us to include JSON or transaction details? I've read that it costs a larger fee for more bytes in a transaction, so I'm assuming you can add whatever you want to the transaction.

3) When I last made a transaction with an altcoin [1], it got "split" to two addresses. One of these addresses was not my target receiving account nor an address that I owned. Does anyone know why this other address got coins? Does this happen in many/all cryptocurrencies?

4) If I made a payment gateway that created a unique address for every user to send payments to, would it be unreasonably expensive to collect all of these funds into a single address later? (N user payment accounts * 1 outbound transaction => Large Central Account/Wallet)

[1] http://dogechain.info/address/DLqfuYFwVmroo4oaiVU9oSGTjsEBvQ...

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#122
Bitcoins are an amazing investment if you have the money;the only problem in investing into it is that there is absolutely nothing close to a guarantee that you will receive any sort of return of investment with profit (not that it's expected to with this type of unofficial currency);however, a problem with it is that you would have to bank wire the money into the place you purchase your BTC from such as BTC-E which would take a few days and for all you know;it could drop or rise at that time (most likely rise) in which you would then not have enough or you could just wait again for it to drop;if it ever were to.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#123
post #80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, the risk of fraudulent creation of bitcoins or of double spending of a well-confirmed bitcoin are essentially zero (assuming no major flaw in the current science of cryptography.) This is a pretty narrow definition of fraud. Credit card fraud isn't caused by double-spending or counterfeit currency. It's caused by people stealing your credit card information. This is akin to people stealing your bitcoin wallet,…

> This is akin to people stealing your bitcoin wallet No it isn't. If I buy something on amazon, I need to enter my credit card information. If I buy something with bitcoins from cointagion.com, I don't need to upload my bitcoin wallet. > Credit card fraud isn't caused by double-spending If I buy some socks on Amazon with my credit card info intended only for buying those socks and a hacker steals this info and then…

Cheers, those are some good points and I am indeed conflating fraud and theft.

So the key point you're making about the Amazon/Target scenario is that a criminal who breaks into one of these systems has the ability to launch transactions on my behalf, which s/he wouldn't be able to do with Bitcoin. Which is fair but not universally true. Some international vendors and cards require you to go through the equivalent of the verified by visa system for all transactions. The way this works is that you give the vendor-site your credit card info, they pass this on to visa/mastercard and redirect you to visa's page where you can (1) see who you are paying and how much and (2) need to type in a password that only you and visa know in order to authorize this transaction. I suspect usability is the only reason this system isn't universally prevalent.

I think the Bitcoin scenario is worth thinking about a little more. Fred Schneider, the Cornell professor, likes to say that you can't reduce the amount of trust a system needs to work, you can only move trust around. What Bitcoin seems to have done here is now instead of trusting Amazon/Target etc. we now trust the applications which announce our transactions to the Bitcoin network. If this application is another website, like Coinbase, I don't think we've made any progress. If it's a local program that runs on your computer, it's not clear to me that is necessarily more secure. But if this is the hypothesis being made - that locally run bitcoin wallets have a reduced attack surface in comparison to the websites that store your credit card information - then I would say this is a hypothesis that is worth investigating. But we do need to acknowledge that we don't have enough data to determine whether this is actually true at this point in time.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#124
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chris, are you looking into non-currency uses for BTC, a la Albert Wenger [0]? My own feeling is that the protocol (secure ledger) is more generally valuable and can likely be put to work in a lot of uses. Is that your feeling as well or are you primarily excited in its use as cash? [0] http://www.usv.com/posts/bitcoin-as-protocol

Definitely interested in lots of other uses for the ledger. If you or someone you know is working on something, we (a16z) would love to talk. I'm hoping next year we'll see a lot more startups building on top of the Bitcoin protocol.

Hey Chris, my friend and I are working on such a thing. Hopefully we'll be able to post a "Show HN" relatively soon.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#125
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We began accepting bitcoin last month and aren't converting all of our bitcoin to dollars. We have several employees who accept their pay in bitcoin. Taking things a bit further, we are optimistic about bitcoin as a payment form with our suppliers as the volatility stabilises. As an example, one of our suppliers is Belgium based and we'd be able to save on the currency exchange with those payments. We've discussed it…

That is certainly an interesting datapoint, though paying your employees in bitcoin... I'm not sure how I feel about that in ethical terms. What would you as an employer do if you paid someone on Friday and on Monday that paycheck only bought half as much bread as it did on Friday? Also doesn't it make income/FICA tax kind of a pain?

That's a good question. We don't exactly view it as an ethical issue. Anyone on the team can opt-in to whatever percentage of their compensation they'd like to be paid in bitcoin. Currently no one is taking 100%.

We do educate how the currency functions and the risks there may be.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#126
This is the same naive analysis everyone makes when they first look at the payments system. "Look at all that money. 2-3% on every transaction. A $500B tax. LOOK AT ALL THAT MONEY."

The reality is this: Most of that money gets passed back to consumers via rewards, benefits and consumer protections.

It's not a tax so much as an incentive for consumers to keep using their cards. And so it is considerably harder to come up with an alternative that is appealing to merchants without taking anything away from consumers.

For example, the interchange on a Visa rewards card for a typical brick-and-mortar retailer is about 1.5 - 1.65%. (Processors mark that up, but that's the "wholesale" fee that goes to the card issuer.) But many rewards cards pay out at least 1% cashback, on top of other benefits. That leaves a much smaller margin to compete over.

And remember, a new competitive option faces massive rollout and adoption costs that the entrenched system does not. Even the acts of changing behavior, upgrading POS systems and training staff are adoption costs. So your new alternative has to offer significant benefits for both merchants and consumers. Significant enough to overcome adoption costs.

Oh, and there's one more thing: debit card interchange just got regulated down to almost nothing (0.05% + 21 cents) by the Durbin amendment. So there already is an alternative, low-fee option that merchants can steer consumers toward and that they already support fully. So that pretty much takes out the opportunity to offer a lower-fee, lower-consumer-benefit option. That already exists now.

That leaves what? A higher-consumer-benefit option? Why would merchants adopt that? A same-benefit option but at a lower cost? But how much lower would the cost be while still matching 1-2% cashback reward programs and whatnot?

But.. but.. LOOK AT ALL THAT MONEY. :-)

(Btw, the digital cash for micropayments and garage sales and whatnot does sound interesting to me. My criticism is limited to the project of competing with Visa/Mastercard/banks.)

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#127
post #8

For all the people out there who are thinking about bitcoin as a payment technology: If you assume that customers get paid in dollars and that vendors will have to use dollars to pay their taxes, pay their employees and buy the raw materials for their products (reasonable assumptions, I think), then a payment consists of one conversion from dollars to bitcoins by the purchaser, and one conversion from bitcoins to dol…

What is VISA? It's a group of Processors right?

So VISA can be thought of as a Protocol. Wether I'm a VISA Debit or Credit user doesn't really matter. I give money to my Bank, the Processor is going to (indirectly) get USD for my transactions. Then they're going to take a cut and give the money to a Merchant Bank, who in turn credits the Merchant.

So what if there was a "BTCP" Card that ran on the Bitcoin protocol? I see something I want priced in USD. I want to give them USD. My bank has issued me a BTCP card. So I ring up the charge. The bank sends the money to the Merchant Bank. Without a Processor. Merchants still carry an escrow with their bank for "chargebacks" and fraud. The two banks can sort out the rest of the details between themselves.

The Exchange price doesn't really matter. The Bank deals in USD. They can just agree to peg their debits/credits against the daily value of BTC. Or a Satoshi. Or whatever. It doesn't really matter since it's not like you're forced to sell your Bitcoin holdings at a particular offer price. You can send it to whomever you want for whatever you want.

So even if Bitcoin doesn't find success in replacing Paypal (and I think there's a good chance it will), the truly disruptive idea is that it's a simple standard that could replace Processors. (Though wow, that would be the fight of the century and I'm not sure I'd bet on the scrappy little guy there.)

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#128
post #92

I too am fascinated by Bitcoin and still in learning mode. I think there's one important distinction to add here though. Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon. That's amazingly empowering and 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running…

> Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe I'm not from Arizona, so Stripe isn't an option. But then there is Bitcoin. Countries: All. Requirements: Internet.

I'm wondering how many consumers globally know how to pay with Bitcoin vs currently have a piece of plastic.

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#129

I too am fascinated by Bitcoin and still in learning mode. I think there's one important distinction to add here though. Credit cards can charge 2.5% because they're awesome Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon. That's amazingly empowering and 2.5% doesn't seem to bad for the people running…

"Some guy in Arizona can set himself up online, sign up for Stripe, have no set fees, and accept a payment from someone in Germany (or NY or Australia) that afternoon." Anyone can take payments using Bitcoin in less time than it takes to sign up for and implement the Stripe API (I would know; I've done both), and you don't have to have a bank account in an approved jurisdiction in order to do so. They can either do t…

Yes but you don't have the incredible safety net of using a bank. Bitcoin seems really unsafe and I keep hearing of people stealing wallets and large sums from Mt.Gox

Re: Why I'm Interested in Bitcoin

#130

This is the same naive analysis everyone makes when they first look at the payments system. "Look at all that money. 2-3% on every transaction. A $500B tax. LOOK AT ALL THAT MONEY." The reality is this: Most of that money gets passed back to consumers via rewards, benefits and consumer protections. It's not a tax so much as an incentive for consumers to keep using their cards. And so it is considerably harder to come…

If you compare interchange with rewards rates, they seem comparable, but most merchants pay much more than interchange. Direct relationships with issuers isn't feasible, even for the largest merchants. There are network fees and usually other middleman processors involved.

Visa and First Data each make >$10B/year revenue, which is already 0.2% of US GDP, and none of that money goes toward cardholder rewards.

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