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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

reuters.com

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Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#121

Post by outworlder »

rbanffy wrote: post #52
msantos wrote: post #8

The French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy. Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausibl…

> old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets. They cannot be controlled after lit (the VL…

I don't think it was a matter of 'wisdom'. The drawbacks are pretty obvious for everyone, specially for rocket scientists.

My bets are on extreme cost reduction measures, plus unrealistic deadlines.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#122

Post by wil421 »

neurotech1 wrote: post #100
wil421 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isnt the plane it is the vest. They were using a standard vest for a plane that can do things previous generations could not. Vector thrusting and some massive amount of thrust provided by those snazzy pratt and whitney F119 turbofans.

It was a problem with the Breathing Regulator/Anti-G (BRAG) valve supporting the Combat Edge vest, for F-22 pilots. F-16 pilots use almost the same vest, but the regulator and anti-G inflation valve setup is different. The F-22 can sustain high Gs for longer which exacerbated the problem with the BRAG valve.

Thanks I wanst sure on the technical details. Nice to see the problem has been isolated to the valve.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#123

Post by wil421 »

jacalata wrote: post #109
wil421 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has had a renaissance lately. I believe they are more of a world company based in Cali.

What does 'having a renaissance' have to do with whether they are American or not? If anything, they are becoming more 'American' with their high-PR plans to build stuff in the USA. Their products all have 'designed in California' etched on them. They are, and they want to be, American.

>Maybe the younger generation, much more focused on and exposed to computer/electronics brands, doesn't care much for Boeing or GE. But to anyone here over 30, Boeing is pretty damn 'American'.

This is why I said that, younger people see Apple more than older people do because of the "renaissance."

You could easily counter with the Apple 2 in the 80s...

Edit: they want to be Californian, they are different note how it doesnt say designed in America.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#125

Post by buzaga41 »

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #93
oscargrouch wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldnt say "anti-american" but "anti-NSA".. And its pretty deserved, and im saying that also as a brazilian, cause: would you trust in the software, hardware and firmware of those after all we know about the NSA revelations? worse yet , if you think you dont have access to the source code, or to modify any part of it, as a pure blackbox.. Would you trust your country safety and security to something that its very…

First, the Boeing offer wasn't even top 5 anymore. The only companies still on the bid were Dassault and Saab (favored by the military). Then, out of the blue, they come and announce... "we finally settled on Saab instead of Boeing because of NSA "... Give me a break. Dilma is crazy to boost the government's image, internal and worldwide, making our country look like a bastion of freedom and democracy, when we both k…

They're just passing the political bill for the USA to pay, of course it wasn't the reason for the deal, things aren't that simple. But politics is everywhere, the USA is always trying to get it's way, has used spying to cut deals, spies on everyone, etc... I'm all for all countries everywhere playing this card every time they can, why not?

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#126

Post by growupkids »

tedunangst wrote: post #27
rosser wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. From TFA: "Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner... "The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity." Does it remain a "US-centric view" when Brazil is the party saying, "Because NSA"?

Not exactly, but consider that Brazil gains leverage simply by saying Boeing was in the running, even if they weren't. e.g., Brazil wants the NSA gone, but they don't have any means to apply the necessary pressure. Point at an already failed Boeing deal, and tada, now you have a pressure point. Or possibly Brazil had promised to go with Boeing, but recently decided Saab was a better deal. Backing out would cost them…

It's always surprising to me when people believe anonymous government sources, when the statement is in that governments interest. Government personnel are paid to act and speak in their governments interest, which includes lying, exaggerating, provoking, etc., and in my experience when that source is anonymous and when the statement is advantageous to that governments interests it's probably not true, or not the whole truth. It lets that government publicly disavow knowledge of the potentially inflammatory statement (we don't want to hurt US relations!), while simultaneously telling the opposite story with deniability (we want our citizens to think well gladly hurt US relations!).

For all we know this "leak" is being used to legitimize something else entirely, perhaps the Brazilian military is unhappy withy the decision and this story exists to deflect criticisms from domestic sources: we picked the unpopular aircraft because the NSA would use Boeings aircraft to spy on us. Or we want to send a message, etc.

Welcome to world politics, where the truth is rarely what people say it is.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#127

Post by growupkids »

pauljburke wrote: post #115
fiatmoney wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the NSA's spying program ended up not affecting the outcome of the fighter decision, it can still be worthwhile to claim that it did if they have an independent goal of reducing that program.

I think the NSA would know if that was the case and be able to pass that information along.

Very likely, although they probably wouldn't pass this on the public.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#128

Post by gabriel34 »

growupkids wrote: post #126
tedunangst wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly, but consider that Brazil gains leverage simply by saying Boeing was in the running, even if they weren't. e.g., Brazil wants the NSA gone, but they don't have any means to apply the necessary pressure. Point at an already failed Boeing deal, and tada, now you have a pressure point. Or possibly Brazil had promised to go with Boeing, but recently decided Saab was a better deal. Backing out would cost them…

It's always surprising to me when people believe anonymous government sources, when the statement is in that governments interest. Government personnel are paid to act and speak in their governments interest, which includes lying, exaggerating, provoking, etc., and in my experience when that source is anonymous and when the statement is advantageous to that governments interests it's probably not true, or not the who…

Indeed, the Brazilian military had openly declared the Saab Gripen as their favorite after months of technical studies and tests.

On the other hand, the NSA spying on Brazil's president and on some large companies (sign of a commercial use of NSA's resources, not just defense as is otherwise claimed) may have contributed to the souring of some relations used to lobby for Boeing, therefore weakening it's position and enabling Saab to break the deadlock.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#129

Post by sanoli »

wil421 wrote: post #123
jacalata wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does 'having a renaissance' have to do with whether they are American or not? If anything, they are becoming more 'American' with their high-PR plans to build stuff in the USA. Their products all have 'designed in California' etched on them. They are, and they want to be, American.

>Maybe the younger generation, much more focused on and exposed to computer/electronics brands, doesn't care much for Boeing or GE. But to anyone here over 30, Boeing is pretty damn 'American'. This is why I said that, younger people see Apple more than older people do because of the "renaissance." You could easily counter with the Apple 2 in the 80s... Edit: they want to be Californian, they are different note how i…

>note how it doesnt say designed in America.

Ha! I hadn't thought about that untill your post. What the hell is this 'designed in California' thing? Boy, Apple really does try hard to look cool. Someone probably said "why not 'designed in Silicon Valley'?" and he/she was fired for not knowing that it was too bourgeois.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#130

Post by sanoli »

msantos wrote: post #113
zorked wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their own website is wrong then. Question 10 here says they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people: http://www.abin.gov.br/modules/mastop_publish/?tac=Perguntas...

> they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people Let's face it, that's not exactly what their website says. A translation would be more like ... policing is beyond their "job scope" and detaining, arresting and interrogating are activities incompatible with the Intelligence work they do - for obvious reasons. So, saying that they don't detain nor arrest people is fair point. Although they could detain a…

Actually, that's pretty accurately what their website says:

"Can ABIN arrest people? No. ABIN doesn't have police powers/attributions."

Original in Portuguese: A ABIN pode prender pessoas? Não. A ABIN não tem atribuições de polícia. Deter, prender, custodiar ou interrogar são atos incompatíveis com a atividade de Inteligência.

Saying any Brazilian citizen can detain someone caught in a criminal act is not what we're talking about here.

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