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NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

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Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#121

Post by no_wave »

sliverstorm wrote: post #109
no_wave wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should someone consent to being apprehended if they are protesting the same laws that they are breaking?

Because it's civil disobedience. If you fight back, resist arrest, evade the police, etc it is just disobedience. :) The point behind civil disobedience is to publicly demonstrate the unjustness of the law, not fight it head-on. Remember when those nonviolent University students a little while ago got pepper-sprayed? Much, much better press for them and their cause than "students start brawl with police". Some people…

Both Snowden and Assange are avoiding apprehension while being non-violent.

I said nothing about violence - in fact, your comment is the first on this page to mention violence - so I don't really understand where you're coming from.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#122

Post by simoncion »

JonSkeptic wrote: post #112
nabla9 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide exact document where he reveals documents about spying China, Russia etc. that are not linked to domestic spying. >At this point, he is a spy from every angle you look at it. Remember that not even U.S. government is not charging him from being a spy.

If you click on the timeline link provided, it pulls up links to the original publications that broke the story. If you were interested in facts, you could read them yourself. Also, if he is not a spy and is not being charged as one, then he should return to the US. The fact that he can't and won't speaks volumes about his character and his intentions.

> The fact that he can't and won't speaks volumes about his character and his intentions.

Ellisberg (the gentleman who leaked the Pentagon Papers) strongly disagrees with you. Please do carefully read this op-ed by Eillisberg himself:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-07/opinions/40427...

For reference, the Pentagon Papers revealed a systematic effort by multiple Administrations to lie to Congress and the public about the reasons for initiation of the Vietnam war, and the covert expansion of the same.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#123

Post by joshstrange »

lukev wrote: post #46
joshstrange wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to know what you think he could have released that would have allowed him, as you imply, to stay in the "good graces" of the NSA/USA yet provided enough information to the US public that would not have been written off as a crazy person?

The stuff about tapping major ISPs, the ubiquitous metadata collection, etc. That's the true whistleblower material, the stuff that will get people angry and clamoring for change, and I think releasing the rest of it actually hurts that goal.

Ok, in that case can you expand on what should have been kept back?

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#124

Post by maigret »

kordless wrote: post #22
skrebbel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand that. Why is doing the right thing somehow "patriotic"? You don't need to "love your country" to want to make it a better place.

A patriot does for his country what its government will not, or cannot.

No. (Ideally) a patriot does what is good for his country, whatever the government does, good or bad. That can include helping the government do what is right for the country and its citizen.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#125

Post by [deleted] »

sliverstorm wrote: post #113
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm appalled that so many Americans who are outraged about their government's mass surveillance of Americans simultaneously seem to think it's acceptable for the US government to conduct mass surveillance on the citizens of other countries.

The US doesn't govern non-citizens. Most people don't see why people who do not pay taxes, obey US laws, etc have to be treated with all the perks of US citizens. Recall a feudal model, where a lord governs his people and protects them, but is not generally obligated to extend his protection to non-subjects. It's not a belief that foreigners have no rights, but more like foreigners have their own government to watch…

[deleted]

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#126

Post by FedRegister »

lukev wrote: post #34
Theodores wrote: post #6

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

Everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy

First, many didn't know that they were doing it. Second, as an American citizen I surely don't agree that it should be doing it as a matter of policy. This is another situation where the government does things in my name that I disapprove of. Third, nice American Exceptionalism, bro!

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#127

Post by mindcrime »

lukev wrote: post #34
Theodores wrote: post #6

Snowden differs from many of the whistleblower ilk in that there is nothing to dislike about his character (yet). The media have not dished any dirt, none of his friends/family/ex-lovers have came forward with anything untoward about him and he hasn't shown any signs of being deluded. Even if you try your hardest to 'believe', a lot of whistleblowers have been deluded one way or another. They can be overly indoctrina…

I think the fact that he leaked a lot of details about NSA surveillance of foreign governments diminishes his moral high ground. That is the stated mission of the NSA and while the details are highly classified, everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy. Embedding himself in the NSA specifically to find the details regarding these activities and release them looks more li…

everyone knows that they're doing it and agrees it should be done as a matter of policy.

Not everyone, and especially not when you're talking about "friendly" governments (aka, our allies). And even more so when the spying is being done for industrial espionage / economic advantage purposes, and not national defense.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#128

Post by sliverstorm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #119
sliverstorm wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as if that doesn't just make him more qualified for the job Maybe. Maybe not. Do we want the NSA to be rule-breaking cowboys that get the job done, or do we want them to have a rigid code of ethics? I honestly don't know. Rigid ethics impair their effectiveness; cowboyism gives us what we have now.

> Rigid ethics impair their effectiveness Does it? How, specifically? > cowboyism gives us what we have now. Which also impairs effectiveness at doing anything that is legitimate role of any component of the US government, which necessary includes adhering to rather than subverting the Constitution of the United States.

Does it? How, specifically?

As I do not work for the NSA, I hope you will understand my lack of real-life NSA examples. But surely you have experienced the ways bureaucracy can drag down a good project.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#129

Post by sliverstorm »

mowfask wrote: post #117
sliverstorm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if it's anything like the Cold War, everybody is spying on everybody else, and everybody knows they are being spied on. They just kick up a fuss in the news when they happen upon a piece of proof , to use in the PR battle.

Looks like I totally missed the parallel to the Cold War, could you elaborate?

I didn't say this is the Cold War. I said if it is anything like the Cold War.

Re: NSA Coworker Remembers Edward Snowden: "A Genius Among Geniuses"

#130

Post by dragonwriter »

sliverstorm wrote: post #128
dragonwriter wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rigid ethics impair their effectiveness Does it? How, specifically? > cowboyism gives us what we have now. Which also impairs effectiveness at doing anything that is legitimate role of any component of the US government, which necessary includes adhering to rather than subverting the Constitution of the United States.

Does it? How, specifically? As I do not work for the NSA, I hope you will understand my lack of real-life NSA examples. But surely you have experienced the ways bureaucracy can drag down a good project.

> But surely you have experienced the ways bureaucracy can drag down a good project.

Surely I have -- and all of those have been about personal empire building, which wasn't the issue being discussed.

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