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David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

121–130 of 373 posts

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the US population as a whole has slid backwards in power and monetary means over the last thirty years. The shenanigans that allowed the elite to walk over the working class had their roots in the late 70's and 80's with the shift to the right and the "Greed is Good" era.

Of course - the rest of the world has 'caught up' to the USA. We aren't the powerhouse we once were. Even if you distributed CEO pay to minimum wage workers they'd only be getting a thousand bucks or so each.

>>CEO pay to minimum wage workers they'd only be getting a thousand bucks or so each.

I would bet the workers would take it. And we'd probably have a more equitable and healthy economy.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#122
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If government were not as influential as you claim, there is absolutely no reason the wealthy would use the resources they buy power with to provide goods and services, especially to the poor and needy who cannot afford them as is. In fact, you completely ignore the robber barons and a time when less regulation DID exist, and society was even less free and equal. There is NO such thing as a truly free market. Free ma…

The problem is that too many people reach for government power as a first response instead of the last resort it should be. Government force is always going to result in unintended, negative consequences. Those socialistic programs you laud, with the high taxes, intrusive regulations, and government debt, are a net drag on the economy. Working together voluntarily is vastly superior to being compelled by force, howev…

> The problem is that too many people reach for government power as a first response instead of the last resort it should be.

If we are reaching for government power, then we have encountered a problem which has not or cannot be solved by the free market as is. I have not seen many people saying "hey, we should socialize the software industry, Google just isn't doing well enough." It already is a last resort.

> Government force is always going to result in unintended, negative consequences.

I rarely use the word always because all it takes is a single counterexample to disprove the point, and I can name a few: Firefighters, police, military, are all "markets" that would not be easily regulated by the free market and the government has done instead (and done so quite well, in most cases.)

> Those socialistic programs you laud, with the high taxes, intrusive regulations, and government debt, are a net drag on the economy.

Lumping ALL those programs together (again) invalidates your point. There are some programs that work very well and have more benefits than costs. I agree that this is not true for all programs/regulations, thus my point: Fix what's broken.

> Working together voluntarily is vastly superior to being compelled by force, however well intentioned.

This argument could be used to support ANY form of government. Communism would work wonderfully if we all worked together voluntarily! Fact is we live in a world of game theory. Sometimes people work together, sometimes they don't. Capitalism works because in theory, even if you are working only for yourself, you are working for society as well. But that is not always true, and so we need to pull together to make sure that those who would abuse the system can't. We need to pull together so that everyone, or at least the majority, benefits from our society.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#123
post #44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden private for profit schools and schools run by the municipalities compete with each other. All of them are funded by the tax payers and they get a certain amount of money for every student. The system is a disaster, with a lot of for profit schools slashing costs to maximize profits regardless of what the consequences are for the students. And that's just one of the many failures of the system. Basically, th…

Profits ~= value of product - resources consumed There is nothing wrong with firms making profits, it is a sign of efficiency, and a sign of where resources should be allocated; with time, the least efficient firms are eliminated, and only those which create the most value at the lowest cost remain. The problem is that the product (and its value) may not reflect the objective(s) of the policymakers and the public, an…

Easier said than done. I think it's probable that some problems are so difficult to translate into proper market motivations that the cost of the perverse incentives inevitably produced by your attempts will consistently exceed the potential for increased efficiency and miraculous innovation that the market promises.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#124
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted you, but I think I disagree largely with the sentiment you expressed. As one of those wacky libertarians, I'd like to defend (what I think is) the default liberty-oriented position. Disclaimer, the following is a series of value judgements, and not necessarily steeped in fact. The argument isn't necessarily one based on 'more' vs. 'less' government, but 'Constitutionally prescribed' government size. The Con…

Appealing to the Constitution isn't really a valid line of argument, though. The Constitution isn't the Bible. It cannot, and should not, prescribe morality, which is what should drive law-making; nor should any part of it, including the Bill of Rights, be sacrosanct. The Constitution, and its derivates the US Code and state constitutions, are authoritative only to the point that they usefully represent their constit…

His point (as I read it) isn't that the Constitution as written is sacrosanct, but that it is extremely useful to have a document whose rules are 1) executed as closely as possible in the present, and 2) changeable in the future. Otherwise there are no rules, and people are just making things up as they go. I tend to agree that this is the situation we currently find ourselves in, but I think a lot of the blame for it can be placed at the feet of the Constitution being too hard to amend, forcing the kind of (arguably) extra-legal pragmatism we see.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#125
post #58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this". That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make an…

> The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about. That's the kind of facile, juvenile argument the OP decries in this article. To make an analogy, I could equally say, "I shouldn't be forced to be in a family. Families are great and everything, but w…

>You're an American (or a Canadian or a Briton or whatever). You are part of a society and part of a nation whether you like it or not. So let's make it work for everyone.

"{Nature|The State|Society|Some other abstraction} is the only thing we all belong to, so better get used to it."

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#126
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted you, but I think I disagree largely with the sentiment you expressed. As one of those wacky libertarians, I'd like to defend (what I think is) the default liberty-oriented position. Disclaimer, the following is a series of value judgements, and not necessarily steeped in fact. The argument isn't necessarily one based on 'more' vs. 'less' government, but 'Constitutionally prescribed' government size. The Con…

Appealing to the Constitution isn't really a valid line of argument, though. The Constitution isn't the Bible. It cannot, and should not, prescribe morality, which is what should drive law-making; nor should any part of it, including the Bill of Rights, be sacrosanct. The Constitution, and its derivates the US Code and state constitutions, are authoritative only to the point that they usefully represent their constit…

> Appealing to the Constitution isn't really a valid line of argument, though.

I disagree. Right or wrong, it is the document against which we supposedly make all laws. I'm not suggesting that we appeal to it as it is, rather, appeal to its defined measures for ensuring that it is kept current. Put simply, in football, they have a rule book. That rule book is what we consult on matters of the rules. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, and sometimes the rules need updating -- but suggesting that we disregard the rule book while playing football seems naive. The rules are necessary.

The Constitution is that rule book. Either follow the rules or write new ones. Why is that so untenable?

> The Constitution isn't the Bible. It cannot, and should not, prescribe morality, which is what should drive law-making;

I disagree that law-making should be driven by morals. The Constitution, in theory at least, should work as a bulwark ensuring that minority opinions are upheld. Just as homosexuals are fighting for equal rights under the law because their moral values aren't shared by enough people, the Constitution is their prescriptive measure. They have equal rights because they are people, and deserving of equal rights, regardless of their or others' morals. We're still niggling over the details of it, but ultimately, I have hope and faith that gay rights will eventually achieve parity in law that the rest of us enjoy.

> nor should any part of it, including the Bill of Rights, be sacrosanct.

... until it is ratified, I disagree.

> The Constitution, and its derivates the US Code and state constitutions, are authoritative only to the point that they usefully represent their constituents' morality.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the statement, but by your argument, gays shouldn't have rights if the majority of constituents agree they shouldn't? I disagree here, and I would expect that every minority group should. It's very possible that I've misconstrued your intent though, so please feel free to correct me if I'm in error.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#127

The tragedy of the successful capitalistic societies like the USA is the lack of first hand experience with socialism (and communism) will eventually result in the masses wanting to try it out. Believe me, it's the worst thing what can happen with your country. It happened around here, and it takes generations to recover. Don't try it, even if it looks morally right.

Where is "around here" please?

Eastern Europe.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#128

The arguments about the divide in America often misses an important point - personal choice or rather the sum of many personal choices that lead one to be on either side of the divide. The fact that we have so many people in prison is driven by the fact that people break laws in the first place. Some laws might be unjust, but the vast majority are just. If you commit what society has deemed unwanted, you must be puni…

Some laws might be unjust, but the vast majority are just. It doesn't really seem like you're examining this assumption too closely. The vast majority are just? Really, the vast majority or laws are immaterial to criminal behavior. The vast majority of law is definition, e.g. Telecom companies are only allowed to use such-and-such a frequency band, utility companies must implement such-and-such safety measures, banks…

I'm not intending to insult your intelligence. I simply disagree with your sentiment. Having the benefit of knowing exactly what life is like in less fortunate society than US, it's a matter of perspective.

Compare the state of law and law enforcement in US, say to Russia, and you will see that by this standard things aren't that bad here. No doubt they can be better, but at least I have some recourse under the law here, whereas bribes and political connections mean everything here.

Also, that is no anecdote, but very real personal experience and not in the "hood", but a relatively modest part of Los Angeles.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#129

It's really a shame that more people don't actually read 'Capital,' or at least the first three chapters of Capital I. While I ultimately disagree with Marx, I think he does a much, much better job of analyzing the problems we have than most people. Hence Simon's distinction between 'diagnostician' and 'clinician.' It was Lenin and Mao that really tried to be the clinicians, anyway. It's a Sunday, if you've got some…

I don't agree with Simon's claim that because Marx provided no clear clinical treatment it should cause one to not call themselves a Marxist. Marxism is the science of analyzing socioeconomic relations.

Agreed. I read it as defensive comments designed to appear more reasonable to a broad audience, since Marxism is such a dirty word here.

(I play a Marxist often, but really, I part ways with Hegel, so I can't really truly be a Marxist.)

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#130
post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not?

I think this question is frankly naïve. Humans have functional limitations on how much we can care about other people, aka Dunbar's number. This is not something you can improve (maybe by .0001%) or create policy around, it's a hard limit.

The fact that, at least in the United States, virtually everyone lives in a place with more than a few thousand people in it, ensures that there will be a conflict between the needs of the group of people around us and our own reactions to those needs.

Add on to that the reality of scarcity of both needs and desires and you have a clear answer: No we are not all in it together.

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