Dart 1.0 Is Out • Hacker News Board

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#121

Post by pcwalton » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 4:18 AM UTC

ahoge wrote: post #84

threeseed wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn Javascript. Dart is a dead end technology. ALL the committers are from Google and it is not an open standard which basically eliminates any chance that Mozilla/Apple will ever consider adopting it. And frankly with Apple dominating the mobile web without them any solution will never eventuate to anything.

> [Dart] is not an open standard It will get standardized in the not too distant future. [1] > Apple dominating the mobile web Huh? Android's market share is over 80%. iOS got about 13%. [2] [1] http://www.ecma-international.org/news/Dart%20workshop.htm [2] http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/12/idc-android-hit-81-...

> It will get standardized in the not too distant future. [1]

Standardized by Google, perhaps, but by nobody else. It will not be a multi-vendor standard.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#122

Post by trycatch » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 4:50 AM UTC

cwp wrote: post #108

georgemcbay wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Dart VM is not part of any web standard, nor part of a spec that has interest from multiple vendors" Which is... exactly the same situation JavaScript was in when Netscape introduced it.

Which is exactly the same situation that Javascript is in now . The Javascript VM in Firefox has features that are not part of any web standard, nor part of a spec that has interest from multiple vendors.

And Firefox actively _removes_ these features. For example, sharp variables were removed in Firefox 12, E4X was removed in Firefox 20.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#123

Post by threeseed » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 4:51 AM UTC

ahoge wrote: post #84

threeseed wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn Javascript. Dart is a dead end technology. ALL the committers are from Google and it is not an open standard which basically eliminates any chance that Mozilla/Apple will ever consider adopting it. And frankly with Apple dominating the mobile web without them any solution will never eventuate to anything.

> [Dart] is not an open standard It will get standardized in the not too distant future. [1] > Apple dominating the mobile web Huh? Android's market share is over 80%. iOS got about 13%. [2] [1] http://www.ecma-international.org/news/Dart%20workshop.htm [2] http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/12/idc-android-hit-81-...

Android's market share maybe 80% but it is about 50/50 in terms of web usage.

And don't forget that Apple customers are acknowledged as the more valuable (higher net worth, disposable income, tastemakers etc)

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#124

Post by woven » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 5:08 AM UTC

Twirrim wrote: post #105

vfclists wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shameless plug!!

Welcome to HN, home of the shameless plug and the nearly mindless rants.

Sorry folks, I thought and still maintain that our situation was relevant to other startups and hackers. I thought we'd get some critical feedback, and we did. And yes, we wanted to tell our own story with respect to Dart since we had been expecting to do something like that for some time as part of Google's announcement. The post is removed and we're moving on.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#125

Post by woven » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 5:08 AM UTC

munificent wrote: post #62

woven wrote: post #49

Psyched! See our HN post about our Dart app (Dart rocks) and our team's disappointment with not being included in the 1.0 announcement. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6735044

I don't know anything about what went into deciding which companies were mentioned in the announcement, but I know for certain I and others on the team have a ton of respect and gratitude for all of the help you and Kai have given us. Thanks!

Thank you! And congrats!

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#126

Post by turbo_pax » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 5:21 AM UTC

tzury wrote: post #12

So if i get it right, the way "Google" sees the future, there is Go at the server side and Dart at client side (which is in fact JS). Am I wrong? I would expect Google, or at least, a team at Google, to take over NodeJS which is based on their V8 and expand it to universal server client language and libs. JS can be complied into go binaries after all, so why not letting people write apps using the same language. Let…

And don't forget AngularDart or whatever for the front-end framework. I wish the name "Google" wasn't attached to any of these projects as I'm a huge fan of them but not the company they're born out of.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#127

Post by rdtsc » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 5:33 AM UTC

azakai wrote: post #114

ahoge wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, Firefox 2.0+ is shipped with support for generators/iterators, array comprehension, let, and destructuring assignment: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/New_... Firefox 3.0+ added support for expression closures and generator expressions: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/New_... Firefox 22+ supports fat arrow functions. Just open the console and try it yourself: >>> l…

There is a spec and discussion in the standards bodies for all of those AFAIK. For example for let, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:let Arrow functions are being standardized as well, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:arrow_functio... and for generators, the standards discussion led to a change in the spec, with the new version replacing the old implementation in SpiderMonkey (v8 recently…

Unfortunately, though, this kind of goes against your argument which I understand to be "how dare Google release something that is not standards based". I agree principle with that, _but_ in this case a few posts did show example of technologies that all browser vendors introduces that were outside the spec.

> But in recent years, there is growing consensus on the importance of not shipping non-standard things.

Others might read that as no new and meaningful technologies will be seen implemented in the browsers soon. I can't think of too many thing designed and build by an intercompany commetee.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#128

Post by moca » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 6:10 AM UTC

Some people wanted to build optional-typing language for real world for decades, and finally made it. That is a great achievement.

From product point of view, Google would be much better to port Android Dalvik to Chrome. You can run GWT Java code in browser years ago. Running the same code using JVM would be much faster with much less code change. 5-10 man-year would be enough to do the porting, and it will share work between Android and Chrome for years to come. Of course, it would be much boring research work though.

From performance point of view, asm.js gets much better performance with way less work. No matter how good Dart performs, it would never make sense to port high performance C/C++ game code to Dart, so you end up having to use both Dart + pNaCl, which is an awful solution. Technically, TypeScript is more interesting if Microsoft can keep it simple and fast, but I doubt Microsoft would make anything simple.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#129

Post by azakai » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 7:20 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #127

azakai wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a spec and discussion in the standards bodies for all of those AFAIK. For example for let, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:let Arrow functions are being standardized as well, http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:arrow_functio... and for generators, the standards discussion led to a change in the spec, with the new version replacing the old implementation in SpiderMonkey (v8 recently…

Unfortunately, though, this kind of goes against your argument which I understand to be "how dare Google release something that is not standards based". I agree principle with that, _but_ in this case a few posts did show example of technologies that all browser vendors introduces that were outside the spec. > But in recent years, there is growing consensus on the importance of not shipping non-standard things. Other…

I don't follow, why does it go against that line of argument? If someone else did something bad in the past, it doesn't excuse doing something bad in the present.

(And as mentioned above, I'm not sure about those examples - while it's very possible some were released before being standardized, I didn't see a link showing that, and they are all being standardized now. Need more info.)

Fair point about the limits of things designed by committees. But it isn't always true, just mostly true ;) For example, WebGL was designed through a standards process, and it is great.

Re: Dart 1.0 Is Out

#130

Post by afsina » Fri, Nov 15, 2013, 7:30 AM UTC

turbo_pax wrote: post #126

tzury wrote: post #12

So if i get it right, the way "Google" sees the future, there is Go at the server side and Dart at client side (which is in fact JS). Am I wrong? I would expect Google, or at least, a team at Google, to take over NodeJS which is based on their V8 and expand it to universal server client language and libs. JS can be complied into go binaries after all, so why not letting people write apps using the same language. Let…

And don't forget AngularDart or whatever for the front-end framework. I wish the name "Google" wasn't attached to any of these projects as I'm a huge fan of them but not the company they're born out of.

They avoid attaching Google name to those projects and their licenses are proper. There is no "Google" word in the dart front page except "Dart is an open-source project with contributors from Google and elsewhere.".