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Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

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Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#121
post #54

The author is very smart, and more trained in economics than I am, but I still disagree with some of what he says. China is doing us two favors: 1) If they weren't buying our debt, someone else would. Without a large buyer like China, we would have to pay higher rates on our borrowing. This would trickle down to mortgages too, since China is a big investor in Fannie and Freddie debt, and mortgage backed securities. 2…

> 1) If they weren't buying our debt, someone else would. Without a large buyer like China, we would have to pay higher rates on our borrowing. This would trickle down to mortgages too, since China is a big investor in Fannie and Freddie debt, and mortgage backed securities. The point is without the US dollar being propped up against the Chinese Yuan we wouldn't need to borrow as much because exports would be much hi…

On point 1 - I agree with you in theory, in that anything we spend externally needs to be paid for by either selling something against it, or borrowing. This is Germany's issue too: they lend people money, so that others can buy their goods. My sense is that the Chinese aren't propping the currency up as much as they used to, but that's not based on hard data.

On 2 - In general countries (though not necessarily specific individuals and companies) do better with cheaper goods. This is why the gains of trade almost always exceed the costs. The question is does a forced cheapening by China create inefficiencies by moving us to tasks that we don't have competitive advantage? I don't know the answer.

Good discussion, and I appreciate your insights into economics.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#122
I know a thing or two about economics, but I am far, far, far from calling myself an expert or even reasonably knowledgeable. With that prelude, can someone explain this:

If China is getting lots of dollars from selling goods to the US, and then buying lots of US Bonds to keep those dollars out of the Chinese economy, presumably the bonds are just being held somewhere. They represent a promise from the US to China that says "Those goods you sold us? We haven't really paid for them yet, but at some point in the future we will, with a bit of interest."

So at this point the goods have changed hands, the Chinese workers have been paid in Yuan, and the Chinese government is holding the excess USD value of those goods in a big pile of paper.

What happens if the US says to China "You know what? We're not going to be paying you for those goods afterall. Sorry about that."

Obviously, this will piss off China, but let's ignore the political ramifications. What are the economic consequences? The pile of paper is now worthless, so the net worth of the Chinese government drops. Does that matter? The dollars aren't part of the Chinese economy, so there shouldn't be an impact there. Is the Chinese government using their US Bond portfolio as an asset to back borrowing from other countries? Is it counting on the interest to fund future spending? (Risky gamble if they are.)

Going forward, the Chinese probably won't be so willing to buy more US Bonds, which would be understandable, and other countries and individuals might be wary as well. But maybe not, if it's framed as a one-time reset of our debt (kind of like a bankruptcy) and there's some changes to the way our debt is managed to make sure it doesn't get out of control again. (Maybe an amendment to hold all living US politicians, past and present, personally accountable for a proportion of the US debt weighted by the height and duration of their office.)

So, maybe we could still sell bonds, and maybe not. If the Chinese stop buying, they're going to have to come up with another way to keep USD out of their economy if they want to continue selling goods to the US. That makes me think they'll keep buying the bonds, especially if there's no material impact from writing off the value of the existing bonds. Or maybe they'll buy other things from us. They want a navy, and we've got a bunch of ships mothballed in various states of disrepair and a need to earn revenue without selling bonds, so maybe a deal can be struck there. It's got to be cheaper to cleanup and retrofit an old ship than building a new one from scratch, even if it's less impressive. They can use the old ones for support ships or something.

Here in the US, I don't think we'd be likely to see fewer Chinese goods coming in or their prices raised, because both of those would be detrimental to the Chinese. We'd definitely have to get government spending under control because we couldn't sell so many bonds (if any), but we need to do that anyway. Zeroing out a big chunk of the existing debt will eliminate a lot of interest payments, which would help a lot.

So, does the reluctance to do this all come down to the reputation of the US Government and the US People's ability to pay back the debt we've accumulated?

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange you say it works because it happens that every case of hyperinflation in history has occurred under a fiat, paper system. Paper is very easy to debase, but if you want you can go to the "best" "schools" in the world and they can tell you why it's such a good idea... and maybe one day you can pick up a job at a central bank. And if you're really lucky your peers will prefix your name with a sobriquet of h…

rather than stating the risks/benefits of fiat vs metal-backed currencies as absolutes, how about you address them as they really are? what would you rather have controlling your inflation/deflation rates? the rate of mining of a metal from the ground? or, in the case of the US dollar, a specialist committee controlled by a democratically elected government? (and don't come back to me with bullshit fed conspiracies,…

You're post is incoherent. I'll try to address what I can.

You ask what I would have controlling inflation / deflation. The free market is my answer. Study the history of inflation / deflation you will see that almost without exception inflationary shocks are caused by the control of money and its supply by a narrow self-serving elite. You ask what else I would favour when a much better question would be why, based on the historical record you would ever lend intellectual support to the status quo.

You mention "bullshit Fed conspiracies". Do you actually understand the Fed and its origins? I'm 100% sure that you don't. The robber barrons were never deposed. When the Rockefellers and Morgans were relieve of thier "monopolies" they gained the greatest cartel and monopoly that one can possess: The power to print the money. The won the central bank. That's no conspiracy. It's fact.

Your mention of mining is a bit confused, and I don't really understand what your getting at. You are aware that mining isn't cost-free activity?

Finally, before you repeat the asinine arguments as a peasant shill of their cartel how about asking yourself why the central banks of the world retain gold as their most prized asset while at the same time quite successfully employing you, for free to peddle the notion that only toilet paper has any utility in internet discussions.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you a hint: it involves a pretty undistinguished metal from any practical standpoint that for some reason right wing nutjobs are totally obsessed with.

Yeah, that metal based economy worked out so well for 16th century Spain.

That's a very important case that is so fascinating because despite all the weaknesses of employing a precious metal as a currency; since the introduction of paper currency in the last centuries central bankers have managed to create hundreds more Spanish disasters in such small period of time!

Weimar, Austria, Zimbabwe, Argentina... It's a long list of 20th Century, central bank, paper induced economic disasters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

Can you find any hard-money regimes like that?

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many, many problems involved in pinning your value system to a random, naturally occurring substance. See [1] for one argument. Another obvious problem: if we pin our money supply on gold, what happens if we find an asteroid made up entirely of gold - enough to triple the quantity of gold on earth? The person who grabs that gold now owns the whole planet and the entire economy is ruined, even though no actu…

Notice that I haven't mentioned precious metals once, it's only been imputed by others including yourself. Nevertheless if that's the road you want to go down then the impact on Spain from it's South American conquest is an example from history that somewhat parallels your asteroid of gold. And yet where Spain's experience serves as a warning we have to look to the modern central bank and revolutionary France in orde…

I don't disagree with you at all - paper money is terrible. However, everything else is worse. The only better option is the complete removal of any kind of barter exchange - like a Star Trek economy - but that relies on a lack of scarcity and automation we haven't achieved yet. We are heading in the right direction fairly rapidly though - completely autonomous mines, factories and vehicles are one of the big turning points of the economy and we are very close to achieving that (50 years optimistically?).

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#126
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree, but they don't really have much of a choice. They have to put the dollars somewhere , and when you're dealing with that many, Treasury bills are really the only game in town.

Why not a commercial bank or an investment fund?

China has about $1.2 trillion (with a 't') in Treasury bills. US GDP last year was about $15.7 trillion.

Bank of America has about $2 trillion in assets. If the amount of money you give to a bank is more than half its current assets, then your relationship to the bank is fundamentally different than anyone else. You're not a customer. You're an owner. That's the scale of money that we're talking here. Once you have this much money to store, it becomes clear that there's no such thing as a completely safe place. But, out of all of the unsafe places, US Treasury bills are less unsafe than everything else.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that metal based economy worked out so well for 16th century Spain.

That's a very important case that is so fascinating because despite all the weaknesses of employing a precious metal as a currency; since the introduction of paper currency in the last centuries central bankers have managed to create hundreds more Spanish disasters in such small period of time! Weimar, Austria, Zimbabwe, Argentina... It's a long list of 20th Century, central bank, paper induced economic disasters: ht…

Argentina's hard money solution to hyperinflation (pegging to the dollar) didn't end well either.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#128
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange you say it works because it happens that every case of hyperinflation in history has occurred under a fiat, paper system. So what, we go back to the bartering system? It's difficult to trade my skills as a programmer for food directly. Not sure what the rest of your statement is saying...

Back to bartering? There have never been a big scale bartering system as they always end up being debt based since that is a lot more convenient for all parts. 6000 Years of Debt is a book that can be recommended for information about that. It is not a very good description of the present, but it captures the past very nicely.

I believe you mean "Debt: The First 5000 Years". I'm still reading it. It's good for understanding these ideas, but it spends a lot of time in the beginning in "the language of debt" and how it relates to religions. That is interesting in its own right, but not why I picked up the book.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very important case that is so fascinating because despite all the weaknesses of employing a precious metal as a currency; since the introduction of paper currency in the last centuries central bankers have managed to create hundreds more Spanish disasters in such small period of time! Weimar, Austria, Zimbabwe, Argentina... It's a long list of 20th Century, central bank, paper induced economic disasters: ht…

Argentina's hard money solution to hyperinflation (pegging to the dollar) didn't end well either.

Yes. You should spend some time figuring out why.

Re: Stop Being Wrong About China Buying Our Bonds

#130
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you a hint: it involves a pretty undistinguished metal from any practical standpoint that for some reason right wing nutjobs are totally obsessed with.

Sure. But gold, and diamonds and other pretty shiney things only have as much value as we place on them, the same as paper money. @21echoes covers everything else I wold add on this. The US currency used to be backed by gold up until 1934 [1], as did several other countries[2]. But as times have moved on, there are several other minerals which have become more important, I think it would become too difficult to rely…

> Sure. But gold, and diamonds and other pretty shiney things only have as much value as we place on them, the same as paper money.

Whenever I come across the argument that we return to a gold-backed economy, this is among one of the first things that comes to mind. Gold is worth so much because it's considered a precious metal and has numerous uses in industry. But besides the extensive history of its worth throughout the ages (which probably maps well to its chemical attributes, such as malleability), there's nothing that suggests it won't eventually become worthless if civilization values something else (salt, platinum, clean drinking water).

I used to think I was a little crazy whenever I'd have such an argument with my inner monologue, but now that I see the same point raised by others, I'm not so sure.

Maybe I still am crazy.

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