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Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

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121–130 of 146 posts

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#121
post #27

So much talent... focused on the buying and selling of securities , instead of creating new things that will make the world better in a directly measurable manner. Virtually all trading volume today consists of buying and selling old securities -- essentially, legal claims on existing assets. The sale of new securities issued to finance the creation of new products and services -- for example, a company selling new s…

>Virtually all trading volume today consists of buying and selling old securities. >I'm not sure having so many of our best and brightest minds going to Wall Street (and into high-frequency trading in particular) is a good thing, from a societal perspective.

Your so wrong. Cash Equities account for notionally c. 50% volume at best the rest being made up from exchange traded derivatives. HFT, MM and Prop firms by speculating and posting contra liquidity lower transaction costs for other market participants. Society benefits from having a fluid and well greased market which reflects all known information.

Also get your Keynesian BS out of here.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#122
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way, this is an awful, awful idea that you hear quite a lot. Think about what would happen. What incentive would a participant have for placing an order early in the one minute interval? If you can't cancel it, you're a sitting duck. And if you can't be executed now, why insert the order now? By doing so, you show your hand. You'd end up with a rolling one minute e-bay auction where everyone tries to insert at…

Why would it matter when people place the orders if there is no extra information to be gained during that time? If the orders placed are only revealed after they have taken effect, why bother waiting for the last moment?

YOu have just reinvented a 1 minute cross on a unlit platform...

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#123
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity. Why "Former"?

I walked away and moved onto more exciting things like entrepreneurship. As the author states, HFT is like rebuilding gravity models every week, so your product is not sustainable and doesn't grow, cash generation from HFT also is usually not scalable on a per strategy basis.

Thank you, interesting insight.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone said something similar about a lot of people in the startup community. That we were sending our best and brightest out to create products that ultimately only served the purpose of pushing ads (Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, etc). I don't know how true this is. There are a lot of very smart people in the world. The luxury of having that many smart people is that we can have a lot dedicated to designing amazing…

Then why we haven't cured cancer yet or malaria or global warming or psychological disorders ? There are a lot of smart people in the world but we really can't afford to work on silly things.

> There are a lot of smart people in the world but we really can't afford to work on silly things.

Well, smart people's labor isn't your property to allocate. Nor is it the property of "us." It belongs to those individuals.

So it's not a question of what "we" can or cannot afford.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#125
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: spreads & fees: Price spreads and fees have come down as a result of electronic trading being open to everyone, and is probably independent of HFT (at least, modern HFT): E.g., The decreased spreads and fees were happening in europe in the early 2000s, when fastest updates were at 1/4 second, and slower updates were at 2 seconds. The nanosecond scale was not the reason for this. Re liquidity: it depends how you d…

> If you define it as "the probability that a large order can complete", then liquidity has NOT gone up. People seem to have this idea that back in the days of floor-based trading you could just call up the NYSE and say, "sell 1 million shares of Citigroup!" and the market makers would just kindly oblige you, without widening their spreads or trying to eke out a bigger gain from a transaction which inherently carries…

> It's possible that the situation for executing giant orders in one fell swoop hasn't gotten any better under HFT, but it hardly seems to have made it worse. Plenty of stocks went "no bid" during the 1929 crash.

1929 is an obsolete example. Heck, the SEC didn't even exist in 1929. A more relevant example is 1987 -- how many stocks went "no bid" on Black Monday?

Here's how HFTs operate today. Bid furiously while the going is good. If you find yourself on the wrong side of a trade, you can always hit up the actual market-makers for a penny loss. And if the markets collapse, you pull out. What could be better? Supply liquidity when it's not needed, and stay out precisely when liquidity is most needed.

Meanwhile, the registered market-makers are pulling back, or pulling out. And why not? They used to count on having the good times to balance out the bad. But now, the HFTs are siphoning off their profits during good times. Thus, the cross-subsidy has gone away. In periods of market stress, the HFTs go hide under a rock and don't participate in absorbing losses.

The effect is: There are now fewer market-makers in periods of market stress. That's how HFTs have made things worse.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#126
post #58
post #8

I'm wondering if someone here can explain to me the value in HFT for anyone other than the people doing the trading. I went to Wharton and some old friends are in HFT and the one thing they all say, and I hear repeated everywhere, is that they provide liquidity to the market. Something about it just doesn't ring true to me. If it is in fact true I'd love to hear an explanation.

You are assuming that HFT profits come at the expense of investors. In fact, they were taken from insiders. I'm old enough to remember trading on US stock exchanges in the mid 1990s when prices where quoted in 1/8s and 1/16s and NYSE specialists were the only ones with visibility into order book. Think about it: you as an investor had no idea of the depth of the order book, but the specialist who took the other side…

Tighter spreads were made possible by electronic exchanges, penny pricing, and direct access brokerages.

You didn't need HFT for that. You could've gotten the same thing with LFT. If all you want is a penny spread, then nanoseconds don't matter.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#127
post #8

I'm wondering if someone here can explain to me the value in HFT for anyone other than the people doing the trading. I went to Wharton and some old friends are in HFT and the one thing they all say, and I hear repeated everywhere, is that they provide liquidity to the market. Something about it just doesn't ring true to me. If it is in fact true I'd love to hear an explanation.

> some old friends are in HFT and the one thing they all say, and I hear repeated everywhere, is that they provide liquidity to the market. More specifically, HFT acts like a market maker in that it will take the other side of trades that other players (HFT or not) want to make. Let's say I own 1000 shares of MSFT, but I need to liquidate them for some reason. A margin call, a new car, or some immediate, unexpected c…

There is so much liquidity in MSFT that it'd trade at a penny spread with or without HFTs. Thus, the only advantage is speed.

So you got your order filled in 5 milliseconds instead of 6 milliseconds. So what? You're a person.

And stocks without enough liquidity to get to a penny spread? The HFTs don't like those stocks, because the "F" is not "H" enough for them to participate. The very nature of HFTs is that they prefer to participate when there is already plenty of liquidity.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some old friends are in HFT and the one thing they all say, and I hear repeated everywhere, is that they provide liquidity to the market. More specifically, HFT acts like a market maker in that it will take the other side of trades that other players (HFT or not) want to make. Let's say I own 1000 shares of MSFT, but I need to liquidate them for some reason. A margin call, a new car, or some immediate, unexpected c…

There is so much liquidity in MSFT that it'd trade at a penny spread with or without HFTs. Thus, the only advantage is speed. So you got your order filled in 5 milliseconds instead of 6 milliseconds. So what? You're a person. And stocks without enough liquidity to get to a penny spread? The HFTs don't like those stocks, because the "F" is not "H" enough for them to participate. The very nature of HFTs is that they pr…

> There is so much liquidity in MSFT that it'd trade at a penny spread with or without HFTs. Thus, the only advantage is speed.

You're talking to an unabashed proponent of subpenny increments. Smaller spreads, more counterparties, faster execution -- these things cannot possibly hurt.

Note that I am talking about the concept of HFT. It's true that there are shady operators who abuse rules and undertake things like quote stuffing. I'm not here to defend any of that.

> So you got your order filled in 5 milliseconds instead of 6 milliseconds. So what? You're a person.

Still a net benefit even for just market orders. Limit orders benefit much more from HFT, particularly the stop-hunting variety. I think of the randomized price action as similar to quantum noise. No one really knows to the nth decimal what the price should be, but it wanders around where the money thinks it should be.

So that noise can help trigger your limit trade at exactly the price you want, whereas the false placidity of more granular enforcement is less likely to hit your limit.

Now let's look beyond just me and consider that some firms get more relative benefit from HFT than I do, and that these slivers of benefit sum across market participants.

> And stocks without enough liquidity to get to a penny spread? The HFTs don't like those stocks, because the "F" is not "H" enough for them to participate. The very nature of HFTs is that they prefer to participate when there is already plenty of liquidity.

Of course -- this should not be surprising in the least to anyone paying attention. The reason HFT practitioners participate is to attempt a profitable strategy. Liquidity is the side effect, not the goal. So while it's fair to say they provide liquidity to the market, or even that providing liquidity is the role they play, it's neither their duty nor their motivation.

Similar to how commodities speculators provide counterparties for nervous farmers, they are guided by the invisible hand and not by duty.

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#129
post #113
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you've merely tried to change the subject. Something can't be front-running if it happens after a publicly disseminated market event. Understood? Flash orders = front running. Trading ahead of client flow = front running. Latency arbitrage != front running. HFT market making != front running.

Arbitrage is precisely the subject. Sorry you don't understand that.

It isn't front running, stop being a dick

Re: Barbarians at the Gateways: High-frequency Trading and Exchange Technology

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For HFT the learning requirements are extensive. It is /almost/ essential to have a PhD in CompSci/EE from a top school to do HFT. Alternatively one should demonstrate extensive hardware/networking and optimisation skills obtained from other low-latency industries. All of the top work is being done on FPGAs and latency is now on the order of microseconds (probably lower). As for lower frequency algorithmic trading, t…

You run quantstart? Haha awesome, thanks for commenting. I've been familiarizing myself with the content on your website. Thanks.

Feel free to send me an email (mike@quantstart.com) if you want any other help!
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