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Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

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Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#121
post #119
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Russell definitely did that and was evasive about it afterward. In the late 1940s this insanity was widespread: an entire movement of politically influential players dedicated itself to nuking the Soviet Union before it achieved the bomb and (so the argument went) inevitably used it on us. Von Neumann was another prominent advocate ("If you say bomb them tomorrow, I say why not today? If you say do it at five o'…

Looking at http://www.economist.com/node/699582/print?Story_ID=699582 it seems to be open to some doubt whether Russell was actually advocating a nuclear first strike. (It seems clear that he was prepared to countenance one in some circumstances. That's not obviously completely unreasonable.) After that he went on found the Pugwash conferences, be the first president of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, etc., so…

Could you be more explicit

I'm afraid I don't remember the sources I read (other than Poundstone's book) and don't have time to dig into it just now, though given what I posted I suppose I should. FWIW, my memory is that he was asked about it more than once in the 1960s, denied that he'd said what he'd said, and then responded evasively when presented with evidence of it. On the other hand, my memory is that he'd advocated for a nuclear strike in print; and given the debate you linked to, that seems unlikely.

Edit: My conscience wouldn't sit still until I did dig around a bit. The question is more controversial than Poundstone's book made it seem, so I definitely shouldn't have said "definitely". When will I learn :) On the other hand, there's a lot more material than that Economist article made it seem (the editor of Russell's letters who was defending Russell in that piece really comes across as disingenuous for not mentioning this), and some of it is pretty unpleasant.

The consensus seems to be that Russell advocated threatening the USSR with nuclear strikes to force them to change their policies. Whether he advocated pre-emptive war itself is controversial. He made many comments about this in the 40s and 50s. From a BBC interview in 1959:

BBC: "Is it true or untrue that in recent years you advocated that a preventive war might be made against communism, against Soviet Russia?”

Russell: “It’s entirely true, and I don’t repent of it.”

Other comments were ambiguous (he thought it necessary to "bully the Russians" with the threat of bombing them but hoped it would not lead to war, etc.) Later, he claimed that he had simply "entirely forgotten" that he had ever advocated this. At least two serious biographers, Ronald Clark and Ray Monk, do not find this credible. Here's Clark:

[Russell's] explanation that he had simply forgotten what he had said [...] would be more acceptable if applied to one speech rather than to a long series of articles and statements [...] It might be possible to argue that his disavowal of advocating preventive war was based on the most academic interpretation of the term: that advocating the threat of war unless a potential enemy submitted, even though being prepared to have your bluff called, was not advocacy of a preventive war. But even this questionable escape-route is blocked by Russell’s own statement to [the BBC] and [by] his earlier suggestion that “a casus belli would not be difficult to find".

This paper (a long and convoluted defense of Russell) shows up in Google and contains the salient quotes: http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

My conclusion is that what I wrote wasn't far off, but it was unfair to lump Russell in with von Neumann, Lemay, and the rest of the Dr. Strangelove set who were advocating for nuclear war outright.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea, but you still need $360k or so to be able to withdraw $1200/month forever without worry. That's still a decent chunk of change. I guess you can save it in 5 years, but if you don't like working those 5 years will be hellaciously long

How are you investing $360k to make $1200/month forever without worry?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/29/how-much-do-i-need...

See also:

* http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-...

* http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/26/why-hardcore-savin...

* http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/06/dude-wheres-my-7-i...

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#123

It is rather strange. More and more things of everyday life are automated and computerized. Nevertheless, I have the impression to have less and less time to do all the things I want/need to do.

Really, just prioritize what you want to do, rather than just doing it in the moment. You'll limit yourself this way to the cool stuff and still have time for doing nothing. But the "do nothing" time has to be made a priority, rather than being what's left over. If you have to, schedule the do-nothing time. It's incredibly refreshing and balancing.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, apart from that last fictional character who has arguably brought more harm than good through his ideas (and arguably through them being misinterpreted), I'm all down with that.

Actually, Jesus himself isn't fictional and his existence is pretty much agreed upon as a historical fact.[1] It's the details of his activities in the New Testament and various Gospels that are hotly debated. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus (use this as a starting point for further citations..) /pedant mode off.

Absolutely wrong. If you have evidence that this character existed, please point to it more specifically than a whole Wikipedia article. Nothing about "Jesus" is hotly debated because there isn't a single mention of a "Jesus" in any believable document to begin with. This is not the place to discuss, but I didn't want your wrong message to be the end of it.

Re: Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

#126
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, basically, that. It kind of indicates that he believed Jewish lives are worth so little that we should have pointlessly thrown away millions of them for publicity . Edit: It's questionable whether this was something specific he had against Jews or not. Frankly, I'm not even sure whether an anti-Semite or an anti-humanist is morally superior.

No, he wasn't saying that "we should have pointlessly thrown away" any of them. He was saying that the Jews should have sacrificed themselves to make a point, in something like the same way as many of Gandhi's followers put themselves in danger to make a point, and Gandhi himself went on (life-threatening) hunger strike to make a point. And he was saying that the end result would likely have been the loss of fewer Je…

Thank you for this lucid explanation. Gandhi's way of thinking and acting remains extremely counterintuitive (to us), so it's important to remember both that he practiced what he preached and that it actually worked. If one forgets either of those things, many of his statements become obvious monstrosities. But the fault is with our definition of "obvious".
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