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Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

theguardian.com

121–130 of 166 posts

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious about the use of present tense. From the top of my mind: Madrid - London subway - Beslan (not sure if that is Europe) - All these are committed by people who claim to be Muslims aren't they? On the other hand you have Oslo/Utøya which was committed by an atheist / agnostic. Please don't misinterpret me: I have Muslim friends as well. I just want to stick to the facts. (and get my facts updated if necessary)

He is not an atheist or agnostic, but a christian. He stated multiple times in his manifest that one of his main motive for the terrorist attack was defending christian values.

Yes, but not because he consider himself one but because he thinks these values are good for his country.

Doesn't make him right either way.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#124
post #61

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Counter argument:

- Catholics worldwide have, over decades, mistreated and abused hundreds and hundreds of children put in their care, scarring them for life

I am, of course, talking about the priests we heard about in the news. I wouldn't dare to generalize that their absolutely abysmal moral compass is indicative for the religion as such.

Just saying. Generalization is bad, mmkay.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#125
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the global stats, but in Europe, 0.5% of terrorist attacks are committed by people who identify as Muslim. Christians and atheists commit way more.

Curious about the use of present tense. From the top of my mind: Madrid - London subway - Beslan (not sure if that is Europe) - All these are committed by people who claim to be Muslims aren't they? On the other hand you have Oslo/Utøya which was committed by an atheist / agnostic. Please don't misinterpret me: I have Muslim friends as well. I just want to stick to the facts. (and get my facts updated if necessary)

Wow, you remembered three! Well done! However, over 2000 terrorist attacks occurred in Europe in the last decade, so you'll need to remember more than three to attempt to show that most of them were muslim in origin/motivation. Here's a hint: You won't manage to find many more than ten.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#126
post #81
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the global stats, but in Europe, 0.5% of terrorist attacks are committed by people who identify as Muslim. Christians and atheists commit way more.

0.5% ? Really? Can you back that up with a reference please.

Sorry, my bookmark for the actual data is now a 404 :( It was from Interpol data, 2009 or 2010 I believe. Interestingly while searching for that data I stumbled across some for the USA: In the 1980 - 2005 period, 6% of terrorist attacks on American soil were carried out by Islamic extremists. 6%!

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#127
post #104
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would very eager to hear about terrorist acts committed by people who identify as atheist.

I believe the first suicide bomb attacks were committed by Tamil Tigers.

... who were Hindus.

As an aside, they also carried out attacks against Tamil Muslims in areas they claimed as theirs (Tigers').

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#128
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, maybe not. But murdering people isn't the only awful thing a government can do. If it feels it can get away with this it'll think it can get away with anything.

There's a big difference between killing someone suspected of being a terrorist, and indiscriminately gunning down a bunch of people. The latter is undeniably "murder", but the former, not so much. It's not ideal, but IMO it's not an atrocity. I guess it all comes down which version of justice you favor: the one prescribed by law or the general consensus for what is acceptable.

Actually, there's no difference at all when one involves the other. (See drone strikes / collateral damage / Hellfire missiles / Yemen).

Also, killing people posing no immediate threat to the lives of others and with no due process is, almost by definition, an act of murder. Not war, murder.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#129
post #61

Let's consider a specific example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-kil... The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen...The attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., said only that Abdulrahman was not “specifically targeted,” raising more questions than he answered. The…

Good points except for... > an undefined and secret enemy Just this month alone... - Islamic terrorists gun down over 60 people in a shopping mall in Kenya. - Islamic terrorists blow up over 70 people in a church in Pakistan. - Islamic terrorists massacre over 160 travelers in Nigeria. - Islamic terrorists take hundreds hostage in a coastal city in the Philippines.

Over one billion people are Islamic. That's about as unspecific as you can get.

Re: Chilling legal memo from Obama DOJ justifies assassination of US citizens

#130
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what's happening: intelligent people are having a desperately needed conversation about the full spectrum of related problems having to do with absolutely terrifying assertions of extra-judicial executive power. This is relevant. That's why it's part of the conversation.

If you're referring to the ongoing NSA scandals, I actually think that the government claiming the power to kill citizens without trial, accusation, or evidence is much worse. It doesn't bother you that the random assassination power is only called into question because of the surveillance power? Here's loweringthebar.net mocking the story in 2011 (this story would appear to be almost exactly two years old; the comme…

What I'm refering to is exactly what I said I'm refering to: the full spectrum of issues related to unchecked executive power. In other words, I'm not looking at these as seperate problems which can be stacked from bad to worse. Which is not to say people can't consider things in these terms, just that I'm not doing this. I'm doing what mathematicians do when they look for the most general yet concice expression to cover a range of instances.

And yes, that obviously includes the NSA. But it also includes the transformation of the CIA into a paramilitary force, the transformation of the FBI from a federal level police force into a domestic intelligence agency focused on "national security", secret interpretations of law surrounding the the Patriot Act, unaccountable militarization of police forces up to and including the offices of prosecutors (tactics driven largely by the Drug War), and of course, the explosive growth of what has become the world's largest prison system, which we chillingly refer to as 'an industry' as though there were anything productive about destroyig people's minds using solitary confinement. And let's not forget prisons that operate completely outside the law, where the normal rules about trials, evidence, and expediency are a abandoned altogether. Topping it all off is the culture of fear, suspicion, and paranoia that pervades the agencies involved. The unprecedented use of the Espionage Act to terrify whistle blowers, actual or potential, fits squarely with a general pattern of escalating abuse. Indeed, that's one of the most frightening aspect of this entire development since it indicates that the people at the heart of this know that what they're doing is wrong and that it won't stand up to public scrutiny, but they're doing it anyway.

HN is full of people attuned to systems. And what we're seeing here is a system getting completely, dangerously, wildly out of control. And not just any system, but one that keeps coming back to work done by a lot of people here. Even if it weren't for these unnerving personal connections, HN readers are far more likely than most to recognize deep systemic problems when they occur, and to see them in those terms. That leads to a desire to identify root causes, which leads to a general problem in the inescapable lawlessness of the Executive Branch. In essence it is treating the problems and conditions of normal life as though they were a formal state of war, and adopting the vastly more expansive and unaccountable set of powers that actual war permits.

That must end.

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