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Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

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Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#121

Post by sliverstorm »

SolarNet wrote: post #27
rorrr2 wrote: post #6

The math doesn't add up. At "0.000133 bitcoins a day" it would take 7518 days (more than 20 years) to make one bitcoin. At "0.0004 bitcoins" per video it would take 2500 videos to watch to make one bitcoin. The amount of wasted human capital is insane. Why don't these people get jobs? There are tons of posts on Craigslist for jobs that don't require any education - delivery, waiters, busboys, cleaning, etc.

"Why don't these people get jobs?" Because: THERE. ARE. NOT. ENOUGH. JOBS. * The economy crashed a while ago. We still haven't recovered all the jobs we lost, by either absolute or percentage. * Increased automation and efficiency is slowly removing those jobs you just described. Exec, a YCombinator app, makes a more efficient and automated solution to craigslist cleaning jobs. This is happening in every sector in th…

It's been my experience the jobs are there. They aren't necessarily falling out of the sky, but just two and a half years ago I worked on projects for a man who payed $10/hr and couldn't find enough (good) help. He told me workers were not hard to find (as he really only needed unskilled labor), but people with a good work ethic were.

He was a great guy.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#122

Post by [deleted] »

hosh wrote: post #80
Taylorious wrote: post #50

Love the picture of the "homeless" guy using a laptop newer than mine, with his pet, nice bike, playing a video game while he smokes a cig. He also has an energy drink... as if he needs it to get through his day of sitting around. It's people like him who are hurting the homeless people that are actually in need.

Wow, you guys talking about how this guy should have an apartment or something because he has a laptop are lacking in empathy. When was the last time you met the eyes of one of these good-for-nothing, lazy, bad-smelling, disgusting … things ? If you can't even meet eyes with a homeless person, let alone really observing the person, you can't even put yourself into their shoes, feel what they feel, and see the world f…

[deleted]

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#123

Post by tesseractive »

rfnslyr wrote: post #115
tesseractive wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that I was able to live on part-time minimum wage ($10/hr) that covered rent (rented a room for $500), food ($100 a month and I ate like a king, never ate outside, always home cooked), and my drinking? I was living fine. Were you supporting a family at the time? If not, you might consider the possibility that what was a living income for you might not be sufficient for everyone else.

But then that brings me to the question, why are you packing on more than you can handle. Disclaimer: I'm not talking about people who developed their lives in a different class, then lost everything. I'm talking about people that time and time again make dumb decisions, don't realize it, then blame their problems on either the system, or some other scapegoat when 90% of the time it's you that screws you .

Poor people want to have kids just like most of the rest of us. The idea that only people with means have the right to have kids goes beyond unreasonable and is actually inhumane.

And women often make decisions without realizing that the men in their lives are going to run away from responsibility, get arrested, develop a drinking or drug problem, crumble under the stress of trying to raise a family, or any number of other things. So they end up getting stuck with the necessity of raising their kids on their own in poverty.

Except in the case of medical problems and disabilities, poor two-parent families are typically the working poor, and they tend to have houses and such, and work multiple jobs if those jobs are available, since the jobs available to the working poor typically cap out at 30-35 hours a week with no benefits. And if they're not working, it's generally because they, just like middle class families, made decisions when they expected there would be jobs, and lost those jobs.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#124

Post by fantnn »

lotsofcows wrote: post #38
luscious wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always enough jobs. There aren't enough jobs that people are willing to do for the money others are willing to pay. If I knew someone near me was living on The problem isn't a lack of jobs, it's the draining of capital flow that happen when the monetary system dries up. Whether you believe that to be unfairness or just some players being so adept at the game... that doesn't matter. The ball needs to move or…

"There are always enough jobs." That's patently rubbish as can be seen all around the (1st) world at the moment. However, I don't agree with the parent's comment that technology causes a lack of jobs - also obviously untrue if you look around you. Currently we're on the tail-end of a recession, thus money isn't moving around, thus it's harder to insert one's self into the money stream. As people start spending, jobs…

The fact that there aren't currently enough jobs could very well be an unquantifiable negative externality of having a minimum wage.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#125

Post by Taylorious »

Taylorious wrote: post #50

Love the picture of the "homeless" guy using a laptop newer than mine, with his pet, nice bike, playing a video game while he smokes a cig. He also has an energy drink... as if he needs it to get through his day of sitting around. It's people like him who are hurting the homeless people that are actually in need.

I made this comment out of irritation at the suggestion that this guy is doing this because he needs food. It's a load of shit. It's impossible for a mentally sound person to starve to death in this country, homeless or not. Just because there are homeless people who are homeless because they lost their job and now cant afford food/shelter, doesn't mean that there aren't homeless people who prefer that lifestyle. If you are in a nice climate (like SF) and you are given food, shelter, and basic necessities plus some luxuries (bike laptop etc.) then the idea of working extra hard to land a crappy job where you can still only survive with subsidized everything and you don't have any spare money, doesn't sound so appealing. People on here infer that the average homeless person had some great job, a house, car, etc. and they just need some help to regain that. I'm sure there are people like that who exist, but I would warrant a great deal of the homeless (those who aren't addicts or mental)wouldn't have a much better lifestyle if they got a job, because the job would likely be minimum wage. You cannot live independently on minimum wage in this country. So why even bother working?

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#126

Post by vdaniuk »

rfnslyr wrote: post #115
tesseractive wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it that I was able to live on part-time minimum wage ($10/hr) that covered rent (rented a room for $500), food ($100 a month and I ate like a king, never ate outside, always home cooked), and my drinking? I was living fine. Were you supporting a family at the time? If not, you might consider the possibility that what was a living income for you might not be sufficient for everyone else.

But then that brings me to the question, why are you packing on more than you can handle. Disclaimer: I'm not talking about people who developed their lives in a different class, then lost everything. I'm talking about people that time and time again make dumb decisions, don't realize it, then blame their problems on either the system, or some other scapegoat when 90% of the time it's you that screws you .

Yeah, the notion of personal responsibility in the current form has to go. Genetics and environment is absolutely huge influence and I cant blame a person for poor money management skills if he or she was in a toxic environment all his life.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#127

Post by matthewwiese »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #78
hooande wrote: post #29

There were a few points that the article didn't bring up. I was surprised that they didn't discuss the speculative value of bitcoins. There's no way that the value of a dollar in your pocket will suddenly double, but the value of a bitcoin has and will again. Obviously volatility isn't all fun...would you want your salary paid in bitcions? In the current market you might actually come out ahead over the next few year…

>> "Bitcoin allows homeless people to avoid the shame of begging" With a choice between pride + 60¢ per day or $10-20 per day from begging why wouldn't you choose the latter? To be able to afford laptops, smartphones, cigarettes etc. these men must be getting money from somewhere other than bitcoin. Also: "he decided to live on the street for a while" makes me think he probably has some money in savings that he is ab…

>> With a choice between pride + 60¢ per day or $10-20 per day from begging why wouldn't you choose the latter?

The article mentioned that it reduces the likelihood of robbery, but to put it more simply, they have less of a chance of being mugged. Panning for donations is quite obviously easier, but makes you fall victim as a potential mark, labeling yourself homeless is like shouting, "I have no dedicated protection I can rely on, won't be taken seriously by police, and likely don't have anyone who worries about me."

>> To be able to afford laptops, smartphones, cigarettes etc. these men must be getting money from somewhere other than bitcoin.

The subject of the article lost his jobs and subsequently his housing, the laptop and smartphone are most likely relics from before he was homeless. The cigarettes are a common theme I have seen among homeless, not just these guys; sometimes they don't even buy them, but nab a still lit cigarette a passerby tossed on the ground.

>> Also: "he decided to live on the street for a while" makes me think he probably has some money in savings that he is able to make use of

The article reads exactly as this: "After a few months, he got back under a roof, but that didn’t last, so he decided to live on the street for a while, rather than yo-yoing between home and homelessness." The last part of the segment where he says we wishes to avoid yo-yoing between homes is because he does not want the stress of having a place to stay, and then finding himself without, occurring over and over. It is possible he has a savings account that he is storing cash in to get off the streets, but your comment is not based on fact so that may not be true.

>> This is a feel good article but lets be honest: The vast majority of homeless people don't have laptops or smartphones. [...] Bitcoin isn't going to help most homeless people.

You're right, the majority don't, but it's purpose wasn't as a solution to the problem of homelessness, but instead an exposition, a case study if you will, where Bitcoins have proven to be beneficial.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#128

Post by hosh »

twoodfin wrote: post #116
hosh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched people and how they actually react to people on the streets. I've watched myself. When aversion arises, I have seen this reaction. Does everyone on HN have this aversion? No. I can't even see your faces, hear your voice. But everyone has some kind of aversion. There is often something vile lurking within the depths of people's hearts. It's ugly. I wrote that to give you the reader, a sense of empathy for…

"Some kind of aversion" is a long, long way from seeing other human beings as " things ". I think it would be better if we all acted as if hn were populated by people much closer to the former end of that spectrum.

> "Some kind of aversion" is a long, long way from seeing other human beings as "things".

Every moment you to avert your attention, you are treating a person as a thing. You stop seeing the person and react to the aversion instead.

This is something that happens with pretty much everyone.

The difference here is for me, I am seeing people who, from time to time, will have aversions, and will in that moment treat that person as a thing. For you, it seems to be an unforgivable act that once committed, can never, ever be redeemed. I think that latter is another form of typecasting, don't you think?

I think it is useful to recognize that each of us have done this in the past, as a way of being aware of what is happening in the present moment. So that, when you do find yourself walking down the street, and you are busy, rushing to somewhere else, and someone asks you for change: do you at least stop, look at that person in the eyes, and sincerely tell that person, "No, I don't have change for you. Sorry."?

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#129

Post by jmspring »

hosh wrote: post #113
twoodfin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time you met the eyes of one of these good-for-nothing, lazy, bad-smelling, disgusting … things? That's a fairly vile perspective to project onto someone you're trying to have a productive conversation with. Please treat folks on hn with a bit more respect.

I've watched people and how they actually react to people on the streets. I've watched myself. When aversion arises, I have seen this reaction. Does everyone on HN have this aversion? No. I can't even see your faces, hear your voice. But everyone has some kind of aversion. There is often something vile lurking within the depths of people's hearts. It's ugly. I wrote that to give you the reader, a sense of empathy for…

I've watched and engaged here where I live. Reaction depends on whom you are engaging with. Crazy guy hopped up on something and not sure how he is going to react is a lot different then the guy trying to get by/improve himself and not wanting to be a burden on society.

For the most part, the able bodied young "travelers" that seem to infest this town from time to time are generally met with scorn. The mother with two kids living out of an RV and wanting to avoid the crazy / disturbed street people - met with compassion and care.

Re: Homeless, Unemployed, and Surviving on Bitcoins

#130

Post by oleganza »

rorrr2 wrote: post #70
oleganza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I hear about "wasted capital" I imagine some central planner in a uniform from 1950s. Or North Korea. These guys do have jobs: they are doing work for money. Even if the work is to sit on a street panhandling. Those who donate buy themselves some good feelings. If you don't like that trade, don't do it or pay for it. Simple. Why don't you get up at 5 AM and work till midnight like Tim Cook? What a waste of resou…

> they are doing work for money They are doing one of the least productive things I can imagine. They are actually wasting public electricity and services. It's fine if they are mentally ill, or disabled, but I doubt that's the case.

Shitty wannabe artists also may not be very productive. So what?
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