Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No • Hacker News Board

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#121

Post by dthunt » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:55 AM UTC

dthunt wrote: post #21

Zaheer wrote: post #6

"Mr. Mukerjee appears to have been flagged by the Behaviour Detection Officer (BDO) while in line for what appeared to be unusual behaviours. [...] it is impossible to assess what caught the Officer’s attention, but the TSA source indicates Mr. Mukerjee was already on someone’s radar before he chose to opt-out." What 'unusual behaviors' led to him getting flagged? While maybe Mr. Mukerjee had suspicious behavior I'm…

I call foul on behavioral detection. I sincerely doubt there's a way to differentiate between someone who is ill and someone who is pale and has the jitters because they're about to do something bad. I moreover call foul on the notion that there are enough of the latter set to build an effective training program to create effective BDOs. What's actually happening here is probably that BDOs are being used to justify r…

(just as an addendum to the above, compare: drug dogs, in theory, and in practice, in light of recent disclosures about the DEA's 'parallel reconstruction' program.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#122

Post by cpayne » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:57 AM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #100

cpayne wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prove to me they didn't search his home without serving him a warrant and then we'll talk about the accuracy of this story. How do you prove a negative. The key for me is that he got the NYPD & Port Authority mixed up. Innocent on its own, except the bit where the Port Authority has no jurisdiction outside airports.

And all the other places they have jurisdiction over...It turns out there are more "ports" than just airports.

Yes, but not his apartment.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#123

Post by eruditely » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:57 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #44

Yver wrote: post #3

> Mr. Mukerjee appears to have been flagged by the Behaviour Detection Officer (BDO) while in line for what appeared to be unusual behaviours. Well I'm sold. Serves you right for looking suspicious in front of the Looking-suspicious Detection Officer!

Every time people complain about the TSA and are asked how they should do security people say they should evaluate the person - look for signs of nervousness and things like that. And now they do and you complain anyway. So - what's your preferred method of screening people?

I don't know, the one that is the most empirically effective in assessing somewhere for being a terrorist?

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#124

Post by ballard » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:58 AM UTC

cup wrote: post #11

This reeks of the most cowardly pandering to proto fascist mission creep I've read in a long time. I mean take these key quotes for instance: >Mr. Mukerjee appears to have been flagged by the Behaviour Detection Officer (BDO) >Mr. Mukerjee became verbally aggressive >Mr. Mukerjee becoming further agitated and aggressive after testing positive for explosives, as well as him repeatedly reaching for his not-yet-manually…

Interesting. Perhaps if there were a term to succinctly describe a zeitgeist where participants think they are doing good but actually causing great harm in retrospect, without invoking Godwin's law. Also, any lessons or warning signs for dark periods would be helpful.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#125

Post by Amadou » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:58 AM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #86

coffeemug wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, I think you're accepting an unreasonably low standard of conduct on behalf of the TSA. Why should you just accept "random" searches because of dark skin or arabic sounding name? (Even if 90% of terrorists are arabs, which isn't true, but even if it were, that still means that only 0.0001% of arabs are terrorists, which makes the whole racial profiling strategy not only bad morals, but also but operation…

I forgot to mention (now added), I am not a US citizen or resident. I was pretty aware of the situation in the US before I consciously decided to come here for university and then remain for a job. The main point of my post was that I think the original poster could have cooperated a little better with the TSA. But, I take that view because I know I am a 'guest' in this country. I guess being an American would give y…

While I acknowledge that in practical terms you are sure to get more hassle for asserting your rights, they are still your rights.

Under the law you are subject to the same laws and privileges as any citizen - you are expected to obey our criminal laws while on US soil and you are also expected to have the same civil rights while here too.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#126

Post by etchalon » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:58 AM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #109

etchalon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article makes it very clear what "detained" vs. "not detained" means, in this context. Mukerjee wasn't being detained, or kept, beyond the basic protocol of "unscreened passengers have to be escorted out of the terminal." Mukerjee was free to leave, he simple had to leave the building entirely. He could not just leave and then step back into line, as was his intention, for numerous utterly sane reasons.

So they have their procedures. But that raises the question - what is the point? Let's assume the threat is real, someone with nefarious intent is not-detained, escorted to outside the building and left to his own devices. What is to stop him from simply turning around, re-entering the building and going through a different screening station? I'm pretty sure the answer is "security theater."

Well, if you'd read the rest of the article, you'd see the procedures are designed to ensure that, if he's going to do that, he's doing it without any implement of harm on him, or least not one the TSA can find.

Also, pointing out that it's impossible to deter a truly convicted person from a heinous act does not mean all deterrents are pointless.

Yes, MUCH of what the TSA does is theater, and doesn't do much to keep us safe. Yes, much of it is theater.

But based on all the evidence provided in both his account, and the one above, the TSA acted in a completely sane way in this incident.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#127

Post by Amadou » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 5:59 AM UTC

etchalon wrote: post #118

Amadou wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll note that the government is inserted here, that Jetblue's determination that he couldn't fly was the result of government action. The government has a lot more rules about what it can't do to people than private business does.

As was noted in the article, JetBlue made that determination on their own. You can chose to believe the government told him no, but you'd be ignoring the stated facts in and just making shit up.

No, according to the second article they made their decision based on his state of mind after the government singled him out and messed with him. The government is directly responsible for that chain of events.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#128

Post by dendory » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 6:00 AM UTC

Most of this post seems to be semantic. Aggressive versus perhaps irritated. A Homeland Security Special Agent versus what he may be recalling as an FBI agent, or Port Police versus local Police. I think the only really divergent point is the apartment search. Either he made that up, or it happened and it was covered up.

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#129

Post by sinkasapa » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 6:00 AM UTC

> Not just safe from terrorism, but safe from people who may be belligerent to staff, who may be loud and disruptive, someone who may not be fully in control of their emotions and their judgment call is the final word on whether or not a passenger boards a flight.

Why do they allow children to fly then? :-)

Re: Did The TSA and JetBlue Deny Travel For Looking Muslim During Ramadan? No

#130

Post by vidarh » Tue, Aug 27, 2013, 6:02 AM UTC

lambda wrote: post #99

InclinedPlane wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly far from proof, but it is very disconcerting. Let's go through the lines of evidence here. First off, there were apparently no visible signs that anyone had broken into his apartment. If the FBI or the police had picked the lock or if they had gotten the super to let them in and told him or her to remain silent about it then that would explain such an absence. A thief could also pick the lock but why w…

> The most logical conclusion that I can come to is that a law enforcement agent searched Mukerjee's apartment and probably took the photo so that it could be scanned or for some other reason but accidentally forgot to put it back. Have you ever considered that his landlord could have come into the apartment to make sure it had been cleaned up properly by the outgoing tenants (remember, he had moved in the night befo…

> Have you ever considered that his landlord could have come into the apartment to make sure it had been cleaned up properly by the outgoing tenants

If that's legal in the US, or something one might expect, that's almost more shocking to me than the original story. If any of my past landlords had entered my flat without permission, I would have called the police on them, with good cause.