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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#121
I have so many things to say about this. I'm glad someone came out and wrote about how violating and disturbing living -- actually living -- in another country can be.

I'm happy this article is getting the attention it is.

I'm impressed and filled with respect for the author that she had the guts to write this out.

I'm depressed that people are shocked to the point of disbelief by the contents.

I am Indian, but grew up in the Middle East. I split my time perhaps 4:1 between the Middle East and India as I grew up -- enough that I knew what life was like there, but not enough that I could feel like I was part of it, or it was part of me.

When I came to college in the US, I had a culture shock of my own, but most of it was in the positive direction. A friend in college told me she was going to study away in India. I was genuinely worried for her safety and mental well-being to the point of trying to almost dissuade her from going. I was torn between trying to tell her she must go because of how amazing and enriching the culture and heritage of India will be - despite being an engineering student she cared deeply for the arts and culture - and that she's better off changing plans because of how terribly violated, discriminated against (in good ways and bad, but discrimination is bad in general), restricted and confused she will be. Especially because she was going to be a (very very, even among familiar culture) attractive, fair-skinned foreigner there.

In my malformed attempt to "prepare" her, I wound up telling her a lot from both sides, and she was a little flabbergasted at my deviations from the tourism industry pitch, but took me seriously. She ended up going, she ended up "having a great time" as she told me and her other friends, and she also told me at some point while she was there "I understand what you meant when you were telling me about this place." That was surprisingly it. She probably wasn't nearly as traumatized by her time there as the author of the essay, and I'm glad for her. But I'm doubly glad that people step outside of their national bubbles, experience culture and society around the world, and realize there's so much to fix that we never hear about, drowned in tourist attractions, exotic food pictures, and stories about politicians.

Globalization, rapid as it is, is miles from bringing about understanding of life in another part of the world from where you live - not tour.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#122
post #82

This behavior is the unfortunate effect of modernization and move into cities. India, is predominantly a rural society. Like many traditional socities in asia, morality is enforced by concepts of honor/shame/loss of face. So, you have individuals who behave appropriately with women in their local villages or towns. Your family will loose face if you behave inappropirately and you will be cut off from society. However…

Like most things Indian, all villages in India are not same. Depending upon location and consequently prevalent culture, in some places women call the shots and rampant abuse of women is pretty much not tolerated (typically those in north-eastern states). There are also those where women are treated as cattle, to be used and abused and have no rights whatsoever (example states being Haryana/some parts of UP/Bihar) - families do not lose face in these places if men behave inappropriately towards women, they lose face if the man doesn't beat up the woman "to put her in her rightful place".

So all villagers in the city do not act like boors, like most things people do, it depends on their upbringing and the culture of place/family they hail from.

Weak state is not a unique problem. Some south-east asian countries have far weaker/ineffective state, but this blatant objectification and abuse of women is not rampant there. Unfortunately, culture doesn't change overnight and lack of quality education contributes to lack of introspection/critical thinking.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#124
post #105
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not ethnocentrism, it's real. Even from wealthy countries in East Asia where the strict Confucian relationships put huge burdens on women. Obviously, a lot if not most people are inured to those cultures and don't like the Euro/American level of cultural freedom. The ones who moved are the ones who couldn't deal with the oppression.

> Obviously, a lot if not most people are inured to those cultures and don't like the Euro/American level of cultural freedom. Nope, still ethnocentrism.

Ethnocentrism would imply racism, whereas our pluralism is one of the ways our culture is more free. Korea and Japan are wealthy, first-world liberal democracies, but they abhor immigration and remain 99% ethnically homogenous. The weakness of their cultures is (ironically) ethnocentrism. And even though Western Europe is much better, no place really matches America on this one.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#125
This is crazy. I have traveled a lot and I have never even been close to having any of those things happening to me.

I hope this gets published and circulated widely because women need to realize how dangerous traveling can be.

I have known a few women who have not taken proper precautions.

It's sad, but reality.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#126
I studied abroad in India in the late '90s as part of a group of undergrads from different universities. Every single woman in my group, and I mean 'every single woman in my group' was groped or innapropriately touched at least once during the one semester we were there. There were 3 Indian-American women in our group and they were not immune either. One instance I will never forget we were standing at a bus stop in the afternoon and someone just walked up and grabbed my friend's breast and disappeared into the crowd. We also had multiple instances of man/men climbing over the wall of our group house and stare into women's rooms.

It sucks. And I think western women travelling to India need to adjust their expectations. When a female friend of mine recently told me she was planning on travelling to India I asked her so many questions and got so up in her business she literally told me to chill out and stop worrying so much. I didn't stop bugging her until she promised to start her stay with some locals until she got better acquainted there.

I had an amazing time studying in India and have been back since. I would never tell someone to not go to India. But western women need to be aware that not everywhere is safe to travel without a male companion. Ideally travel with a husband, boyfriend or male friend and dress like the local women dress. Many western women will mistakenly wear underwear(choli or pavada) not-knowing they're supposed to wear a sari over it. Don't do that if you don't want to be groped.

As some people have pointed out it's not an Indian only problem.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#127
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well as an indian it saddens me to say that i agree with you. also I believe that middle class and rich are the most misogynist among indians. There is no morality that works in india accept "I can get away with this because I have money and power to do so". I think that world will face a lot of problems integrating india and indians in near future.

Are you implying education has little impact on how a person perceives the world around him/her? Can we deny that, all rapes that were reported in media were done by people from lower rung of our society? Sure for every poor criminal there is a educated bureaucrat taking bribe and doing as he pleases. But we are specifically talking about street harassment and crime against women here, which is fixable by educating p…

Not only are rape and sexual harrassment quite prevalent in wealthy, modern cities it also has a very real presence in those within the highest income brackets of those cities.

What comes with education and wealth is the sophistication to define the context in which said violence takes place. It can be swept under the rug, it can occur between people who know each other and both want it kept secret, it can occur and then be dealt with by a large sum of money. It is quite ridiculous that being poor inherently makes one more likely to be a rapist when there's no evidence suggesting a causal link.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#128

How does one effect societal change to counter this? Poverty or the poverty gap isn't going away anytime soon in India. I don't necessarily think poverty is the problem in this case. It is an attitude that's all too pervasive among Indian men, even the well-educated ones and most have gotten away with it for decades. It will take an entire generation and perhaps more of education and cultural shift to change misogyni…

What about women in visible positions of power/authority? In Australia, male/female police duos are quite common. Could the same be useful in India? I think someone suggested elsewhere that this is being tried in Southern India.

Swift justice and brutal penalties, with cases being openly reported as a deterrence.

If many (generally poorer, rural) men are moving to cities, is there an issue of them being unable to find sexual partners of a similar status due to an imbalance in gender? Not sure how you would even begin to reasonably solve that problem in a short amount of time.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#129

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doin…

I totally disagree to, "that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are." Indians or for the matter of fact every human being is curious. But the stares described are not of curiosity but of lust, of wanting that body to satisfy a temporarily desire and then to boast about it to the friends. The biggest reason for such behaviour is the lack of respect that is given to a female in the Indian society. For every male god, there is an equally powerful or even more powerful a female god and we (quite a lot) Indians will go every day to the temple to ask the lady god for fulfillment of wishes but as soon as we are home we treat our wife, mother, sister with no respect at all.

Not only the males are to be blamed for turning India into a male society but also women. There are many (hell lot) women in India who want a son (still do not understand the reason). If they have a girl and a boy and no matter how good the girl is when compared to the boy, the boy will always get more love and attention.

I am an Indian and have lived all my life here and in many parts of the wonderful country. But it makes me sad to see the state we are going into.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#130
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at pictures and movies of women voluntarily engaged in sex acts is in no way equivalent to groping them in the street, attempting to rape them or depersonalising them and treating them as objects. It's just not.

Forgeting about the india comparison for a sec, there are degrees of 'voluntary.' There are no girls out there who think that they want to be in porn when they grow up.

I didn't say it was awesome, I said it wasn't the same as assault and possible rape.
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