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The world is socialist

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Re: The world is socialist

#121

Post by jorgecastillo »

GuiA wrote: post #44
jessriedel wrote: post #11

> All these people who are so great aren't really that much greater than the average schmuck on the subway. There really isn't that much range in the smartness or fitness of human beings. Whelp, you've lost me. The difference in productivity and smartness---as measured by the consistent ability to impact the world---of people is enormous (the additional importance of luck notwithstanding). I'm not sure why you though…

I've taught programming to kids from very poor classes of society who grokked it and excelled at it. But, guess what– a lot of them will be stuck working at McDonald's because they can't go to college, or because even if they could go to public universities their family didn't understand why they should spend 4+ years not bringing in any money when they could work at McDonald's right away. I've also taught/privately…

I have another real life anecdote of my own. My younger brother and I grew up more or less under the same conditions barring our individual personalities. Yet he is way smarter than me, he is about to finish college in two years, while I just got into college this season. I don't even know how well I will do, I might fail this semester who knows. We have already had two very different life trajectories and they might diverge further, even though we are brothers.

Some decades ago the per capita income of South Korea was on par with some of the poorest nations in the world. Today South Korea is a rich nation. Japan was devastated after the WWII, but it experienced an economic miracle afterwards. China was an under achiever in the last century, but in the next decades it will become a superpower. We can talk all day about how equal we are, but not everyone thrives equally, even under the best of conditions.

I can not but held the believe that among individuals, families, nations and ethnic groups, there are innate differences. Differences that are deeply rooted within our genes, we're all thinking beings but not everyone can be Newton, I sure can't. Of course you may beg to differ with me, after all individuals tend to distort the reality to their views. I might have a distorted view of reality, though I doubt it.

Re: The world is socialist

#122

Post by mindslight »

Why do people get so intensely attracted to Ayn Rand's philosophy, even if for just a short time? Because it resonates with their attempting to understanding of the world.

The necessary social systems that interlink us all have become overly complex and maladapted in their treatment of individual people, and by stepping back from "must" and asking "why" one begins to see this everywhere. But the only blessed means of change is democracy, and nuanced intellect doesn't win mob consensus - vague feel-something arguments do.

So the idea of taking one's ball and going home becomes very attractive - even if it's just a single croquet ball - because it's the final option available to avoid supporting the broken game. And morally, systems should be setup to make this base case as easy as possible, even if it initially increases costs for the remaining players, for if the system is truly beneficial then it is still in most people's interest to participate.

But the mob has no concern for individuals, so our social systems lack this capability. Going against the grain is tiresome and unproductive, so most people eventually conform to what is demanded of them. And once you've given in, you're likely to stop dwelling on the faults of the systems you support and instead view them in a positive light for what they do accomplish.

Re: The world is socialist

#123

Post by foobarbazqux »

coldtea wrote: post #61
KaiserPro wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rand hated everyone apart from tall, arrogant & selfish men.

And those only if she could convince to have sex with her or obey her otherwise. Else, she hated them too. Basically, she hated everyone apart from herself.

> Basically, she hated everyone apart from herself.

No evidence, but my gut says that self-hate was at the root of it all. Arrogance usually masks feelings of inferiority.

Re: The world is socialist

#124

Post by WalterBright »

hannibal5 wrote: post #89
WalterBright wrote: post #39

Socialism is forced cooperation, as opposed to voluntary cooperation.

You can't have modern concept of property if you have voluntary cooperation. Handshake deals without enforcers don't work in large scale.

Property rights enforcement has never been listed as a characteristic of socialism that I've ever seen.

Re: The world is socialist

#125

Post by tokenadult »

Since almost all the comments in this thread are about Ayn Rand rather than about other details of the submitted article, I may as well share here from Kung Fu Monkey "Ephemera 2009 (7)"

http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/ephemera-2009-7.html

a quotation I may have learned about first here on HN:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

Re: The world is socialist

#126

Post by glesica »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #119
kaoD wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blizzards are also localized. Why should I help take care of your blizzard if it didn't hit my location? Everything is as private or public as you make it.

True - there is no reason why people in Florida should pay for blizzard cleanup. Is anyone arguing that they should?

Well, federal disaster funds are pretty commonly used to pay for things like blizzards and hurricanes. So, while I agree with you that no one specifically mentioned it, I can understand how it would be an issue if we were to really dig into the whole "disaster cleanup" issue further. It is also the case that politicians who call one disaster aid package "wasteful" are quick to call for aid when their own regions are hit, so there's that.

Re: The world is socialist

#127

Post by pron »

valtron wrote: post #54
pron wrote: post #27

Ayn Rand was a strange and interesting woman who, among other things, sexually abused her most devoted fans and manipulated them in horrible ways. She was never considered an important, serious, or good writer, and her works were ridiculed pretty much as soon as people first first laid eyes on them. But, her novels are, to this day, bestsellers, especially popular, as you write yourself, with teenagers. They are mean…

> sexually abused her most devoted fans Source?

Sources aplenty. There are probably other authors who could claim the same, but I doubt there are any women among them :) An interesting character, indeed.

Re: The world is socialist

#128

Post by pron »

bloody_pretzels wrote: post #110
pron wrote: post #27

Ayn Rand was a strange and interesting woman who, among other things, sexually abused her most devoted fans and manipulated them in horrible ways. She was never considered an important, serious, or good writer, and her works were ridiculed pretty much as soon as people first first laid eyes on them. But, her novels are, to this day, bestsellers, especially popular, as you write yourself, with teenagers. They are mean…

Your post does nothing but put down and ridicule an entire philosophical and political branch of thought without any rationale at all. It's a shame that this type of comment can receive so many upvotes in a community that alleges to care about quality discussion.

> Your post does nothing but put down and ridicule an entire philosophical and political branch of thought without any rationale at all.

Not every quip or fart deserve serious attention, and Rand's "philosophical branch of thought" would not have garnered any attention at all if not for the popularity of her books among American teens. Her "philosophy" is hardly recognized as such. I am not comparing Rand to Hitler, but the intellectual rigor of their "philosophies" is about the same. Would you consider an offhand dismissal of Hitler's ideas as not befitting a quality discussion? Nevertheless, Hitler's work has had quite an impact on society, as has Rand's, and for that reason, and that reason only, they are interesting subjects of study. No one is supposed to take their "philosophies" seriously, and frankly, hardly anyone does. Taking the time to refute Rand's philosophy is giving her too much credit and too little at the same time; too much, because her philosophy is not considered as such by philosophers; too little because her accomplishments lie away from intellectual rigor, in the realm of successful ideological fervor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)#Intellec...

Re: The world is socialist

#129

Post by dnskw »

kungfooguru wrote: post #38
guard-of-terra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the point was attacking capitalism. Capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive in a society.

They are. Socialism is an economy where production is owned and run by the workers for the benefit of the working class, which would be the ruling class at that time. Simply having a welfare state or some nationalized industries is not socialism. The source of power and ownership of production is still in the hands of the bourgeoisie. Mises as serious? Hah. But yes, he and the others are attacked less but only becaus…

Socialism and capitalism can be occurring at the same time in the same city. If one company was worker controlled and one company was hierarchically controlled then it would be fine. As long as nobody is forcing somebody into a different system both could work together.

Re: The world is socialist

#130

Post by hannibal5 »

WalterBright wrote: post #124
hannibal5 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have modern concept of property if you have voluntary cooperation. Handshake deals without enforcers don't work in large scale.

Property rights enforcement has never been listed as a characteristic of socialism that I've ever seen.

My point was that you can't have voluntary cooperation and capitalism either.
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