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Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

defundthensa.com

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Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#121

Post by LoganCale »

s_q_b wrote: post #114

This won't work. Even if they defund the existing programs, the IC will just change the codenames and move them around between departments, as they did with TIA. The technology will live on. The only way to really end these programs would be a full public debate followed by a statute that outright bans them. Anything less is a PR move.

Even if it ultimately doesn't work, don't you think it's worth trying rather than just going around saying it won't work? It's likely going to be a long, slow process to change this, and we need all the wins we can get, if only to prevent apathy and show others who are on the fence that there's enough public outrage over this that they should get involved too. If we do manage to get it passed and then there are new leaks a few years down the road that they did what you describe—move the programs around and keep running them—I think that would cause far greater outrage, because Congress explicitly banned them from continuing the programs and they ignored it.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#122

Post by abecedarius »

s_q_b wrote: post #114

This won't work. Even if they defund the existing programs, the IC will just change the codenames and move them around between departments, as they did with TIA. The technology will live on. The only way to really end these programs would be a full public debate followed by a statute that outright bans them. Anything less is a PR move.

In politics, partial victories can snowball. And vice versa: repeated loss teaches helplessness. The direct real effect of this would be small, but I'd expect it to be much more useful than a loss.

Added: If you read about Watergate, the scandal wasn't any one event or one reaction: it took over two years from the break-in to the resignation, and people weren't sitting still. Some of the important action was in Congress. (Admittedly it was a different country then.)

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#123

Post by nfoz »

mcherm wrote: post #88

Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…

But we're still using that word "collect" which they have re-defined to be useless to stop (a normal concept of) collection: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/wordgames#collect

I'm not sure that this bill would change anything they're doing.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#124

Post by jlouis »

mcherm wrote: post #88

Important point: (This point was made clear in the actual page, but some of the comments suggest that not everyone understood it.) The title to this posting (and the name of the website) are misleading. This is not a proposal to block funding for the NSA. And that's good, because such a proposal would have NO chance of passing, and would probably be a bad idea anyhow. Instead, this is a proposal to block funding for…

Just for the record, this will not help. There are a lot of foreigners who will still be under surveillance and I am pretty sure they will start seeking ways to pull their data away from US soil.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#125

Post by dominotw »

toyg wrote: post #5
icantthinkofone wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah! That'll work! Just like the Occupy movement. Will there be beer?

I hope you'll be downvoted to hell. HN should be about constructive criticism. We're all intelligent people, we can all tear down anything we put our mind at, but that doesn't mean that we should, or we wouldn't leave our house every day. I know I'm a cynic and it's a bad habit I'm trying to change, maybe you should try too.

We'll there is some merit to his comment(Despite the sarcasm). We have seen so many of these types of petitions/movements recently, only to be totally ignored by the gubment.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#126

Post by abecedarius »

alan_cx wrote: post #86
infinity0 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post accomplishes nothing except to persuade people to give up the fight for civil liberties. You propose no solution or do you give any additional insight into developing a solution. Regardless of your actual intentions, you might as well be performing psychological propaganda. It's not helpful.

Just a thought: If people give up, the situation should get worse, and then people will act. It strikes me that we are not at enough of a tipping point yet. Giving up will get us to that tipping point quicker. People seem to tolerate a lot, until it gets excessive, well ,has an effect in their day to day lives. Right now, while what is happening is bad news, it doesn't touch most people's lives in a significant way,…

This is an old Marxist trope called "heighten the contradictions". I get the impression it hasn't historically led to better outcomes than working for improvement, though that's uh less than authoritative from me.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#127

Post by meepmorp »

LoganCale wrote: post #119
sneak wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, even if NSA stopped all domestic spying, the fact that they have programs like PRISM that silently turn any US company into a snitch for the US military means that the US internet industry has suffered an irreparable blow. Obama getting on national TV and saying "we only target foreign entities" is the worst possible thing that could have happened. Even if all of this stuff works, the spying on foreign…

It should be banning surveillance of anyone not under active investigation, not simply domestically.

Why? Persons who are not US citizens who are not on US territory aren't given protections under our constitution. What's the reasoning behind this? Surveillance serves a national interest for the US, and while there ought to be limitations for domestic surveillance, I don't see why those ought to exist for foreigners in other countries.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#128

Post by bargl »

cyphax wrote: post #23
nakedrobot2 wrote: post #2

This is something real, tangible, and valuable that we can all actually do. All of this month I have felt powerless. This is something within everyone's power to do, and it can definitely help start the ball rolling back the way it came. It is pretty unfortunate that there is such a short window of time in which this information can be disseminated. I can imagine if there were a bit more time, this could really sprea…

I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.

Actually you aren't powerless. You phone still works and you can call a senator. I don't know the legal ramifications of neglecting to mention that you aren't a member of the voting citizenry.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#129

Post by codyb »

bargl wrote: post #128
cyphax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still feel powerless, but of course, that's because I'm not a US citizen (though my children are, but they cannot yet speak), while my communications are also spied on by the NSA. I hope you'll be able to make a difference. Good luck on this.

Actually you aren't powerless. You phone still works and you can call a senator. I don't know the legal ramifications of neglecting to mention that you aren't a member of the voting citizenry.

I cannot imagine there could exist legal ramifications for such an act. Perhaps if our senators hear from good citizens abroad who just wish not to be spied upon it will also weigh upon their conscience.

Re: Block NSA funding for collecting the call records of all Americans

#130

Post by oleganza »

king_jester wrote: post #104
oleganza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, it is not something real or tangible. I'm all for defunding NSA, but it's not like a regular business which you can boycott by not giving them money. You have to go and ask permission from the government to not give the money (which they previously extracted from you by force for the "good of society") to some of the government agencies. It's pretty much like going to NSA itself and ask them to defund the…

> 1. Withhold your taxes. > 2. Protect yourself against the police and the military who will try to extract them by force (possibly by having crowdfunded guards). > 3. Switch from using US Dollar as most of the money government generates comes from inflation (gov sells "bonds" that it will never repay in exchange for new money). Since all national currencies are inflationary and controlled by similar institutions all…

Government != society. By not allowing any excuse for violence (including self-defence) and seeking voluntary arrangement with people around you to protect yourselves you are not isolating yourself. On contrary, you solve the social problem socially, not brutally like today with government.
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