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Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

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Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#121

Post by griffordson »

Kylekramer wrote: post #73
electic wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.

Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely don't need their NSA jobs to feed their families.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#122

Post by mjn »

griffordson wrote: post #121
Kylekramer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.

Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely d…

I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#123

Post by mjn »

angersock wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people just don't care. They want a job with other smart people and neat technology where they can do math in peace and quiet. See also "You don't need to worry if you don't have anything to hide" etc.

Truly it is a wonderful thing that the most anti-social and introverted people get to deploy technology affecting the common man.

I mostly blame the common man for that.

Introverted people focused on a specific subject, such as pure-math research, tend to go where society deems it beneficial for them to go. So you are good at math, but you need to eat. Where does society think it's useful for a mathematician to apply his or her skills? Well, our society gives the NSA substantial funding, which it devotes in part to hiring mathematicians. The rest of society does not fund pure-math research much at all.

And yet somehow society is surprised that many pure mathematicians end up working for the NSA. Maybe if you cheap bastards were willing to pay for math research through a different mechanism, the mathematicians would work somewhere else.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#124

Post by rhizome »

colanderman wrote: post #84
rhizome wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, "Business Insider," and a number-of-things article.

Sorry, I just picked the first result on Google. I learned this tidbit from a previous posting on HN; apparently the CIA (or NSA?) recruits heavily from Brigham Young University.

And also not-so-Mormon RPI.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#125

Post by PavlovsCat »

Kylekramer wrote: post #73
electic wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

You saying "trust me" doesn't feed their family. Looking at my Facebook page, there are dozen of people I personally know desperate for jobs. Even their belief that working for the NSA was selling their soul was taken for granted, most of them would take it.

Here's an idea: don't make babies before you found an ethical way to provide for them? You make it seem like people just wake up one day with families and a job at the NSA as the only option.

As general rule: if you could say it in defense of being a member of the Waffen-SS, it's probably not a very solid argument. Everybody has their sob story, but long after those people are dead others will STILL have to deal with the messy, fucked up and stupid structures cowards erected. And with that in mind, my sympathy kinda fades.

And that your friends would do it is no argument either, people always seem to have this idea that they themselves (or their friends) are special and ought to not be criticized. Everybody is so fucking magical when it's about them. Contrast this with how we talk and think about people of the past, of other countries or other social groups.

Also there are the people blown up by drones, or the ones threatened with it http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/will-nsa-whistleblower-edwa... (because who needs trials when you have "intelligence") Those don't even get to the point of worry about job security, and they don't seem to even figure into any of this.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#126

Post by PavlovsCat »

embolism wrote: post #117
PavlovsCat wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asked for evidence, I gave you evidence. I'm not sure what you mean by "real world statecraft", but when I hear that I have to think of Larkin's "This Be The Verse": fools in old-style hats and coats, / Who half the time were soppy-stern / And half at one another's throats.

you don't seem very constructive - which is my point

By giving you the evidence you asked for? Or by also making points you don't like?

Feel free to respond to either, but spare me transparent excuses for not doing so and how that is somehow my fault.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#127

Post by hkmurakami »

mjn wrote: post #122
griffordson wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone you know from FB who is unemployed probably isn't eligible to work at the NSA. We aren't talking about WPA jobs after all. I understand your point, lots of people can't be choosy about where they work. But those aren't the people we're talking about here. We're talking about people who currently work at the NSA and I assure you they have skills that are highly sought after in many industries. They definitely d…

I don't get the impression that there are a lot of jobs out there for pure mathematicians. The conventional wisdom, at least, is that you have three options: tenured professor, NSA, or abandon pure math entirely. And it's not too easy to get a tenured professorship.

do some branches of finance use pure math? (or is it only applied math)

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#128

Post by user875499 »

electic wrote: post #63
Kylekramer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news report about how 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck last week. I'd argue saying "they could leave" assumes a lot.

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

Financial considerations aside, leaving an organization is probably not as easy as it may sound.

When evaluating alternatives, it can be challenging to identify employers that have and will continue to maintain a flawless moral track record, not only for their own organization but also for the customers and vendors they support.

If asked to name such an organization on the fly, one might be hard pressed to pick one that would hold up to HN scrutiny.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#129

Post by [deleted] »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #38

I have a trick I feel would make a confrontation like this better. Always speak under the assumption that the other person is 'good'. That means not calling them a liar. Instead, ask the questions that you feel would expose the inconsistency. That way they show everyone the point you're trying to make. Also it prevents personal animosity from obscuring the real content you might discover. Furthermore, it allows a 3rd…

[deleted]

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#130

Post by PavlovsCat »

nitrogen wrote: post #96
PavlovsCat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To convince oneself against one's better knowledge that something is right when it's not, because one wants to be able to sleep at night of all things is not amoral? To "just follow orders" isn't amoral? Adolf Eichmann wasn't amoral? What, then, is amorality?

Are you perhaps confusing "amoral" with "immoral"? "Amoral" means without moral consideration ("pragmatic", "calculating"), "immoral" means in violation of moral consideration ("evil", "malicious").

No, I'm aware of that, and I mean amoral. Could be the person I replied to confused them, but I actually think amoral is more fitting, since numbing your conscience may be immoral, but effectively makes you behave amorally, no?

Though I do think being amoral is a position on the moral spectrum - wether amoral people want to see it or not - and to me it kinda implies immorality. I find amorality much more dangerous than mere immorality, also because it can often seem benign and go unnoticed much longer.

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