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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#121

Post by Sven7 »

3amOpsGuy wrote: post #106
Sven7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

You've asked some tough questions which are really against the grain here. You've been respectful, direct to the point and articulate. Just felt a simple up vote didn't convey enough of a thanks. You've provoked the conversation in far more interesting directions than it would otherwise have taken. Thank you sven7.

Thanks OpsGuy :)

It was indeed an eye opener.

If asking a question, in what generally appears to be an open minded forum of seemingly well read people of above average intelligence, can be this complicated...its easy to imagine why Congress has a tough time doing anything.

I guess we just have to keep trying to refocus on solutions and hope for the best.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#122

Post by venomsnake »

hga wrote: post #112
venomsnake wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By nuking the rest of the world to glass. If only USA exist there will be no more terrorism. I also intend of stopping crime by preemptively incarcerating everyone and sending them to prison. And I will also stop rape by freezing the sperm of every man when he gets his first ejaculation and then castrate them. The prevention efforts should be reciprocal to the threat.

What do you think is going to happen to the Muslim parts of the world that aren't in majority non-Muslim nuclear states after the, say, third Muslim origin nuclear weapon slags a US city? That's a pretty powerful motivation to keep this beat back, to e.g. as I noted WRT to Afghanistan post-9/11 send a strong message that if you kill thousands of us we will return the favor to the leaders and enablers.

The same that will happen when my little pony characters begin to worship chaos undived and add Abbadon the Despoiler in the crusade against Gandalf who is sitting on the golden throne.

The idea of a successful attack on US with missile is just bad B movie trope. Even USSR strategies were for massive waves of missiles that could overpower the defenses.

Non state actors cannot manufacture nuclear weapons. This thing is hard. They could obtain possibly - but the fact is that US is somewhat defended by geography alone so Israel is much better (and more hated) target.

Now I know that the majority of US ruling class act as if USA is just some territory belonging to Israel and not sovereign country.

But if any credible nuclear threat for the US is to appear - it will be from a country. And there are better ways to contain Iran or Pakistan than to become surveillance state.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#123

Post by PavlovsCat »

christkv wrote: post #95

reminds me off the Hermann Goering quote from the Nuremberg trial in 1947. "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the lea…

denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger

What's worse, many citizens have long since adapted that "argument", and do the dirty work for their leaders without even having to be asked, much less ordered.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#124

Post by venomsnake »

Sven7 wrote: post #84
johnrob wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've unjustifiably framed the problem as preventing terrorist attacks. There's no evidence indicating that is our biggest problem.

:) unjustifiable huh? Feels like I am in an evangelical church questioning god.

No you are in a place that is full with people with very good mathematical and statistical skills that can call you out on the bullshit that is the treat of terrorist attacks and can detach themselves from the primal emotional reaction.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#125

Post by PavlovsCat »

powertower wrote: post #91
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out, and some other will fill the vacuum instantly, while their people clap and cheer - death to the USA, my country #1. This idea that the USA should just leave everyone alone, and then the world will be a perfect place is so naive that it's absurd and self-destruc…

> "Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources."

From the totalitarian point of view, history is something to be created rather than learned. -- George Orwell, "The Prevention of Literature" (1946)

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#126

Post by [deleted] »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #116
twoodfin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this obsession with body counts? To bang again on my favorite drum, many, may more Americans were dying of polio or coal mining accidents in 1941 than German or Japanese bombs. That doesn't mean it was stupid to enter World War II. Obviously those who have chosen to deliberately kill civilians in spectacular ways are not right now a danger akin to imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. But will it really take a dirt…

>Obviously those who have chosen to deliberately kill civilians in spectacular ways are not right now a danger akin to imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. Obviously. Which is the point. >But will it really take a dirty bomb, a successful mass infection/poisoning, or god help us a nuke to stop this silly argument? These are movie theater plots. "Mass poisonings" are a very poor attack vector because as soon as they're ide…

[deleted]

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#127

Post by brugidou »

Sven7 wrote: post #58
mpyne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normal recommendation is "good old-fashioned police work", as if strong police states are known to be beacons of freedom. Some simply recommend to just suck it up as the price of doing business, but that goes against everything America has typically done with regard to terrorism, all the way back to the Barbary Pirates: "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!"

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

What about spending the anti-terror money to make the US "look good" to the people that could be terrorists? That would lower the probability of terrorist attacks.

I know this sounds cheesy but I think repression is just making things worse.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#128

Post by bas »

ObviousPoints wrote: post #93
Sven7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

> The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto. Not doing what the NSA is currently up to, and letting a 9/11 happen every year, would be better than what we're currently doing. "Preventing all terrorism" is both impossible and wildly impractical: to even get close, you must eviscerate the freedoms in your society and undermine the rule of law. Th…

You can't be serious. If a 9/11 were to happen every year, then the police state you dream of would obtain.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#129

Post by spamizbad »

christkv wrote: post #95

reminds me off the Hermann Goering quote from the Nuremberg trial in 1947. "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the lea…

denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger

This is exactly what happened after 9/11 to those who opposed conflict in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Except these people weren't even "Peacemakers" per-say: they just didn't feel military excursions were an appropriate response to a terrorist attack.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#130

Post by PavlovsCat »

graycat wrote: post #111
PavlovsCat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhetoric is easy. Ironically, that itself is also rhetoric. You didn't even address anything I said, can not point what makes what I said mere rhetoric either, but just dismissed it all with that statement. So maybe even if there are solutions, even if they get posted in plain sight of you; as long as you're trying hard to not see them, you won't. What you're really saying is "give me solutions which keep me and my c…

Now, now, now, which Fromm document did you have in mind? My favorite is his TAOL. That's the one?

There is nothing I read of him that I didn't utterly love, so I'd recommend whatever is easily obtainable, it's all good. But "The Sane Society" particularly comes to mind.
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