Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#121

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:03 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #47

chestnut-tree wrote: post #31

I didn't watch the video after reading the description. But this problem of poor worker conditions (and poor compensation) is true of so many goods produced cheaply in China or other countries in Asia. I feel we in the "West" (i.e North America, Western Europe) have an ambivalent attitude towards this issue. We decry the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries, yet we're only too happy to continue purchasing…

The problem is Fair Trade is that it distorts the price signal in the market (obviously, that's the point). But the reason coffee is so cheap is that there is an oversupply - artificially raising the prices extends the problem, it doesn't solve it (by making some farmers realise they can compete better by switching crops). If you want to help, buy expensive, high end coffee - most of it will be Fair Trade anyway, so…

I think fairtrade suppliers are all cooperatives. Though in many cases I've found fairtrade brands not to be significantly more expense (sometimes cheaper even) than mainstream brands of similar quality.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#122

Post by bconway » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:03 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #99

randomchars wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who stops you from going into the kitchen?

Mostly mum, I am really grown up. But people here lives with their parents, until they are married (even when they are married). Nothing wrong that AFAI am concerned. But most people from western culture won't probably get it.

We have a lot of similar restrictions in US workplaces, mostly driven by unions. They are equally as ridiculous.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#123

Post by randomchars » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:04 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #99

randomchars wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who stops you from going into the kitchen?

Mostly mum, I am really grown up. But people here lives with their parents, until they are married (even when they are married). Nothing wrong that AFAI am concerned. But most people from western culture won't probably get it.

> But most people from western culture won't probably get it.

This is the easiest, most cowardly reply to any argument. For me it's not about being born in a western society (Eastern Europe actually) but about not accepting something just because that's the way it's been, or because it's better than the alternative.

Question everything. Why are things the way are? Why can't you live by yourself? Why can't you marry the person you want? Why can't you make yourself a cup of tea? Why can't you drive?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#124

Post by randomchars » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:05 PM UTC

bconway wrote: post #122

pavs wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly mum, I am really grown up. But people here lives with their parents, until they are married (even when they are married). Nothing wrong that AFAI am concerned. But most people from western culture won't probably get it.

We have a lot of similar restrictions in US workplaces, mostly driven by unions. They are equally as ridiculous.

What kind of restrictions?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#125

Post by jcrites » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

gbog wrote: post #112

jacquesm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're more than just a little bit disingenuous here. Besides adding a whole pile of strawmen you seem to have a pre-conceived notion that in order to get out of a planned economy into a market economy there is no route other than those that lead through tremendously unsafe work practice and disregard for environmental issues. And we already know that that isn't true.

"We"? And no, working practice are not tremendously unsafe in China, even if they are less safe than in the west in some industries. Chinese people have a much deeper relation with mother nature than in the west in many regards, their art and culture and literature and gardens are a proof of that. They are extremely concerned with environmental issues, thanks.

A social interest in gardens and mother nature is one thing, but what about pollution regulations? The New York times suggests that there are significant problems with pollution in China:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/world/asia/as-chinas-envir...

"China’s state leadership transition has taken place this month against an ominous backdrop. More than 16,000 dead pigs have been found floating in rivers that provide drinking water to Shanghai. A haze akin to volcanic fumes cloaked the capital, causing convulsive coughing and obscuring the portrait of Mao Zedong on the gate to the Forbidden City."

The article lists a number of specific problems, such as (1) oil companies not improving diesel fuel quality (2) coal power plants violating emissions standards (resulting in sulfur levels at least 23 times the US levels) (3) non-compliance by power and oil companies with existing regulations.

The typical Chinese citizen might be very concerned with the environment, but until the government gets corporations under control, pollution may run amok.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#126

Post by kamakazizuru » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #109

yummyfajitas wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If prices go up sufficiently then there is no advantage to building a factory in Bangladesh. Bangladeshi workers then become unemployed. Right now, Bangladesh needs wealth more than anything else. Once they have wealth, they can spend it on things like OSHA.

Or, you know, those countries could have factories that satisfy their markets, and we could have factories that satisfy ours. All without having to kill people in the process or burning dirty fuels shipping goods halfway around the world.

theres an interesting course called economics 101 - check it out.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#127

Post by kamakazizuru » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

mmagin wrote: post #118

betterunix wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the lessons were already learned. Why are workers still being endangered? Just because they live in a different country?

One of the shocking things (to those of us in the developed world) is that in many cases, human life is treated as less valuable in less-developed parts of the world. Not just by other people, but by the person themselves.

bingo! its people themselves - when your option is to starve - or take a potential risk that maybe in the future you'll get sick from the spraypaint. You pick spray paint. People dont realize that not everyone has that many options in the developing world.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#128

Post by cnvogel » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

jcrites wrote: post #120

smoyer wrote: post #35

It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that accidents like this don't also happen in the U.S. (or other "first-world" countries). In the mid-to-late '90s I was working on a project that had a fatal accident in the Omaha NE area (fortunately I wasn't present to witness it). Another contractor was lacing new fiber-optic cable to the existing coaxial cable and realized they'd run the fiber over a safety ground about 7 poles…

> They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire would be hot once disconnected Is there some way you could measure that before touching it or messing with it? And then call in the power company if its properties are not what they are expected to be?

You could measure a lot of things when messing with power lines, but ultimately someone has to be responsible that circus that are powered of or safe for any reason stay safe. You measurements cannot give that guarantee, but installations have procedures that ensure this. Everything deviating from that procedure, which normally includes setting a switch with a safety pin and attached note about the work carried out, will lead to accidental powering up at some point or another.

Again: when dealing with high voltage circuits make absolutely certain that the person or machine controlling the circuit is informed (or it's you personally who shut off the power and no one else can turn it on).

If you are trained to work on live circuits, please ignore my advice. You'll know better :-)

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#129

Post by jeremyjh » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

There is a quote from Larry Niven's novel "Lucifer's Hammer" that is something like "a society has the ethics that it can afford." Its pretty easy as an uncontested industrial super-power to take the hit to GDP that comes with regulation of working conditions, environment impact and so on. We didn't become an industrial superpower under those conditions and we are certainly no longer uncontested. China is going to do what it has to do, just like we did.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#130

Post by pavs » Sun, Jun 02, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

randomchars wrote: post #123

pavs wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly mum, I am really grown up. But people here lives with their parents, until they are married (even when they are married). Nothing wrong that AFAI am concerned. But most people from western culture won't probably get it.

> But most people from western culture won't probably get it. This is the easiest, most cowardly reply to any argument. For me it's not about being born in a western society (Eastern Europe actually) but about not accepting something just because that's the way it's been, or because it's better than the alternative. Question everything. Why are things the way are? Why can't you live by yourself? Why can't you marry t…

Its called respecting local sentiment. Its not so much that I agree with they ask me to do, but I chose to let them be at the expense of a little inconvenience to myself. Its not like they are killing me.

I do have a boundary and let them know when I don't like certain things.

You can either chose to stay in harmony or give them a middle finger to all their cultural feelings. I chose the former.