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The Founder Visa

paulgraham.com

121–130 of 160 posts

Re: The Founder Visa

#121
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corruptness of the university accreditation system only makes the threshold unnecessarily high. If that happened with startup investors, it would still be a great improvement over the current situation. Currently, there are zero investors whose money gets you you a visa. Expanding from zero to an unnecessarily small group would still be an improvement, even it if wasn't optimal.

I agree that the immediate effects of the policy would be beneficial. But you have also created a government sponsored body that is now deciding what is a startup and what is not. That is very, very, very dangerous. This organization over time may lobby Congress to actively ban all non-accredited startups. This is exactly the path followed by the law schools, medical schools, architect schools, dentistry schools, int…

Can you offer any evidence that university accreditation is a net lose? It may prevent "startup" schools, but it also prevents scams. You haven't made any effort to weigh the costs and benefits.

And even if school accreditation were a net lose, that doesn't mean accreditation in general is always a mistake-- that it's impossible to do right. Whenever you try to build any kind of filter, people will try to game it, but that doesn't make filters pointless.

Re: The Founder Visa

#122
Why should people(bright) all around the world come and help america? Why are proposing an idea to lure these bright people? Has america lost its confidence? In this digital age, whole world is like home. Why again think of country ? why not "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam"?

Re: The Founder Visa

#123
post #122

Why should people(bright) all around the world come and help america? Why are proposing an idea to lure these bright people? Has america lost its confidence? In this digital age, whole world is like home. Why again think of country ? why not "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam"?

" why not "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam"? "

For those who don't know Sanskrit

"Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" == (roughly) "(Every one in) The world is my family"

I wish people wouldn't drop into non english languages without providing a translation. If someone were to sprinkle his messages with Swahili (for example) I would be lost.

Re: The Founder Visa

#125
post #52

How would the government decide who's a startup investor? The same way they decide what counts as a university for student visas. We'll establish our own accreditation procedure. This part scares me. Accreditation boards are a bug, not a feature. Perhaps, like pg's idea, they started out as well intentioned. But today, their primary purpose is to erect arbitrary barriers of entries, thus propping of the salaries of p…

That is a worry. It would have to be super transparent. Originally I proposed a straightforward algorithm for deciding: to use Erdos numbers with Ron Conway as the seed. I took this out because I thought it was better not to go into this level of detail in the essay, but I'd advocate using something like this to decide who was a startup investor.

You rank applicants to the visa program by Erdos numbers? Is this the same Erdos number as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erd%C5%91s_number? Or do you rank investors?

In either case, you're ranking people based on WHO they know, not what they know. Worst kind of ranking possible (it keeps competent outsiders out).

Re: The Founder Visa

#126

Is it incidental that except for one or two guys in essay review are all people who are small investors who don't have ability to open investment shop in India/China?.. May be 20 yrs back this was relevant but today just because you offer does not mean quality people need it..so before proposing was there actually needs analysis..did somebody read the Chinese social networks are ahead in revenue numbers and there is…

Another quick clarification - I am not saying the list has "small investors" in the sense they have less personal fortunes or these are small/less influential people..and also they don't have ability is wrong phrase..actually, my point is these and all other folks should also think of they crossing the boundaries themselves and help America tap the enormous resources in a truly global society

Re: The Founder Visa

#127
Others have said it, but I'll say it again.

Maybe in 1989, this would have made sense. But capitalism has had enough converts that most countries have pretty low barriers to high tech startups now.

IMHO, people who are already entreprenurial in their home countries will be the last people who will want to immigrate to the US. Maybe pg looks at the number of companies founded by immigrants and thinks that he can increase that number by creating a new visa class for founders. Immigrants start businesses because American culture is much more stable, open to startups, tolerant of failure, and gives people second chances; so many immigrants let go of their previous cultural biases and become founders.

If you're already an entrepreneur in a poorer country like India and China, why would you immigrate from there to a country where all expenses are vastly higher. I mean, American companies are setting up development centers in India and China. For richer countries like France and Germany, you give you any existing networks and go to a new place. Seems like a net loss to me.

You have stay in a culture for a while before you recognize business opportunities there. I bet that most of the immigrants who start things do so after staying in the US for 3+ years. My claim is that a new immigrant will do worse at business than average.

You'll have to let in lots of smart people and hope that some start companies. Maybe you can set up the rules so that it's easier for the smart new arrivals to start a business as soon as they're ready.

Currently, due to various rules, the most common route to permanent residency takes approx 6 years of continuous employment with the same employer for an immigrant to gain unrestricted rights to do business (this requires permanent residency). So for somebody who arrived for a Master's degree (being simplistic and using Master's as a proxy for smartness), it will be 8 years after arrival. This same person may have understood the culture well enough in 3 years and be ready to start a business.

Re: The Founder Visa

#128
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate on how you got through the hoops? Many (or most) of the people taking advantage of such a visa might be those already in the US on student or work visas.

Here are some details based on my personal experience (I have been under 6 different visa status over the last 15 years). There is a misconception that an investor visa requires cash investment (in the order of $500K to $1M). That's false. This number comes from the EB-5 green card route. The E visa is a temporary visa, but it is valid 5 years and renewable pretty much as long as you want. There is no minimum cash in…

Thanks for the update. As the above comenter says, apparently Iran is a treaty country but India is not. Nothing against Iran, I'm just referring to the recent anti-Iran rhetoric in the US, but it's definitely sad. Wish Indian bureaucrats were more effective at their jobs.

Re: The Founder Visa

#129
A VISA?! Are you f..ing kidding me? Do you know what a fragile status one has while on a VISA? Any day you your visa can be revoked and you can be thrown out.

Do you expect me to risk everything, to pour my life and blood into a business while under the stress that if anything goes wrong I am on a plane with a one-way ticket to a place where I have nothing anymore, together with my family and away for any of my friends?

Do you want founders? Do you want INVESTORS? Anything less than a Green Card is a spit in the face. Take an example from Canada or UK who both offer directly residency under a set of qualification rules, not $1m.

Stop treating us as we're nothing more than students happy to receive a couple dozen k as if that was an actual serious investment. Oh wait...

Re: The Founder Visa

#130
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the immediate effects of the policy would be beneficial. But you have also created a government sponsored body that is now deciding what is a startup and what is not. That is very, very, very dangerous. This organization over time may lobby Congress to actively ban all non-accredited startups. This is exactly the path followed by the law schools, medical schools, architect schools, dentistry schools, int…

Can you offer any evidence that university accreditation is a net lose? It may prevent "startup" schools, but it also prevents scams. You haven't made any effort to weigh the costs and benefits. And even if school accreditation were a net lose, that doesn't mean accreditation in general is always a mistake-- that it's impossible to do right. Whenever you try to build any kind of filter, people will try to game it, bu…

Gatekeeper laws cost Americans hundreds of billions a year in tuition and lost wages. It's also condemnable from a personal liberty perspective. The burden of proof is entirely on the schools to show that the costs in money and liberty are worth it. They have not done so. Heck, there is no proof that even primary education is worth it. Despite massive increases in enrollment, length of schooling, and school spending, overall rates of numeracy and vocabulary have been flat over the course of the 20th century.

Recently I was talking to friend who had just left law school. He described the process as: "We spend all semester in class where we listen to boring professors who just like to hear themselves talk. Then we do internships where we get paid to learn." I have close friends in architecture school who say the same thing. Almost all the practical stuff about code and structures students learn on the job. The school teaches stuff like "aura" and deconstructionist design. Compare the current Boston City Hall the Old Boston City Hall and you see the results of this wonderful, accredited training. There is simply no evidence that law school or architecture school is a net positive, much less that is worth the cost. (Medical school is a tougher case as care has improved. But this seems to be the result of improvements in science and technology, not schooling).

I hear the same exact stories from people graduating other schools - education schools, meteorology programs, business school, etc. It's pretty clear that the primary result of establishing an accreditation body as legal gatekeeper to a field, is to create jobs for professors and increase wages for professionals. ( note - computer science classes tend to be more sound, perhaps precisely because there is no legal credentialing requirement to enter software programming, and thus the departments must prove their worth the old fashioned way)

If the purpose of credentialing laws was merely to protect consumers, the laws would only care about the results of the schools teaching ( whether graduates could past the Boards or the Bar ) rather than the process ( whether the school was accredited). The law would also allow people to get around the defaults. For instance, your web browser warns you when you access a potentially malicious site, but it still allows you to access it if you really want to. But you cannot do the same with lawyers; you a non-accredited lawyer cannot represent you in court.

And even if school accreditation were a net lose, that doesn't mean accreditation in general is always a mistake-- that it's impossible to do right.

In the context of the American political system of 2008, it is impossible. Washington does not work. You can expect to make a reasonable policy suggestion, and have the actual result come be close to what you wanted. The only thing we can do is keep the poison from spreading through Silicon Valley as long as we can.

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