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Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

theatlanticcities.com

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Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#121

Post by lazyjones »

wilfra wrote: post #35
redact207 wrote: post #10

It gets worse. The photos are not the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Hong Kong real estate. Those who are in the worst poverty are the ones who live in cages. It's literally a bunk bed with sides enclosed with cage wiring. They have no walls, minimal possessions and live day to day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4jjdRzy3w Hong Kong is an intriguing city that I highly recommend to go spend some time in.

Good video. I disagree that the government should do anything about it though. What's the alternative, make them homeless? If there is both supply and demand, let people do what they want. If San Francisco allowed this, there would be far fewer homeless people, but the only options they give them are $2,000 a month apartments or living in the streets. So lots of people live in the streets.

> I disagree that the government should do anything about it though. What's the alternative, make them homeless? If there is both supply and demand, let people do what they want

Does letting people do what they want include building without permits (esp. on allotments not designated for housing)? It doesn't work this way, governments already exercise strong control over the housing market due to laws and regulations.

I don't live in HK, but where I live, the large property funds (whose demand has nothing to do with housing) have a dramatic effect on prices - they cause an artificial shortage by purchasing everything on the market, thereby increasing the value of their own portfolio (and their rents). So just "letting people do what they want" isn't going to help the housing situation, it just increases the GDP. The government should use the increased taxes (if any - too many loopholes) to compensate the negative effects.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#122

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

ctdonath wrote: post #114
hmsimha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the second thought that occurred to me as well (the first was to be absolutely horrified). The reporter said the rent for one of those cages is 12 (AUD I believe) per month. Likewise, that only left each cage dweller with 13 AUD per day from their welfare check for other expenses (which the narrator said was not enough to afford 3 meals every day after other expenses). So if the cost of living in a cage for…

$1 per meal: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com

That may not be much help for the poor in HK.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#123

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

yskchu wrote: post #66
Adaptive wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this. The HK govt is appalling in its disregard of the poverty line. (>6yrs in HK, and I'm no SG fanboy, but it is SO far beyond HK in this, there is just no comparison)

Can you quantify this? HK has one of the best welfare systems in the world.

I think the problem in HK is the number of undocumented immigrants. No papers, no open borders, surrounded mostly by water, these people are easy to exploit. I was told that many of the construction workers' (building skyscrapers) wages barely amount to the cost of the day's food.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#124

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

wilfra wrote: post #51
bjourne wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is to have the government build subsidized housing and then enact strict price controls so that even poor families can afford to live reasonably. That's how it was done in Singapore for example and is why they can live in "spacious" 30-70 m^2 apartments despite having a higher population density than Hong Kong. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore .

I disagree it is the governments job to give people a place to live. From the sounds of it, Hong Kong already does a lot of this. At some point, people need to take care of themselves.

Are governments here for the sake of their people? Or are people here for the sake of their governments?

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#125

Post by lclarkmichalek »

ctdonath wrote: post #114
hmsimha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the second thought that occurred to me as well (the first was to be absolutely horrified). The reporter said the rent for one of those cages is 12 (AUD I believe) per month. Likewise, that only left each cage dweller with 13 AUD per day from their welfare check for other expenses (which the narrator said was not enough to afford 3 meals every day after other expenses). So if the cost of living in a cage for…

$1 per meal: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com

Do these people have access to cooking facilities? Also a lot of the stuff there is being bought in bulk, and I imagine that storing stuff might be a problem. And of course, there is the omnipresent fact that many poor people do not have the time/knowledge to prepare many kinds of meal.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#126

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

tehwalrus wrote: post #62
wilfra wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good video. I disagree that the government should do anything about it though. What's the alternative, make them homeless? If there is both supply and demand, let people do what they want. If San Francisco allowed this, there would be far fewer homeless people, but the only options they give them are $2,000 a month apartments or living in the streets. So lots of people live in the streets.

to rebut this sticking to your libertarian premise (which I don't agree with, but you might actually listen then!): Government intervention caused this. The government strictly controls which land can be built on, and restricts supply so much that this is what is left. If government stopped restricting which land developers could buy, build on, and sell as housing (which is a bad idea for another reasons, but not lib…

Let me get this straight. You think that if it were allowed to build on every square foot of HK, that there would be no housing problem in HK? What additional problems do you imagine would be created by the paving-over of every unit of land?

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#127

Post by cabalamat »

mseebach wrote: post #108
mjn wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long does it take to stop working? I'm living in Copenhagen, and it seems to have been working here for quite a while now. And it makes the city much nicer for everyone. As a middle-class professional, I don't need the social welfare system myself (at least, not currently), but I still do benefit from the quality of life that comes from living in a city with very low crime, relatively low poverty, and reasonably…

> How long does it take to stop working? For Denmark, about another 7 years. Why do you think the government is acting the way it does? (For those not familiar with the situation, pursuing a reform strategy in straight opposition of explicit pre-election promises). By then, the baby-boomers will have retired and the smallest generation in modern history is left to pay for everything. As for crime, there is no evidenc…

> As for crime, there is no evidence that low inequality causes low crime rates, or the opposite.

This study disagrees: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s...

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#128

Post by Evbn »

saosebastiao wrote: post #110
bjourne wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the alternative is to have the government build subsidized housing and then enact strict price controls so that even poor families can afford to live reasonably. That's how it was done in Singapore for example and is why they can live in "spacious" 30-70 m^2 apartments despite having a higher population density than Hong Kong. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore .

Public housing or housing vouchers are one thing. Price controls are another. Price controls are absolutely, without a single empirical doubt, the worst policy you could enact. You might as well start torching your housing supply...the effects are the same.

Vouchers without controls drive up prices, becoming a transfer from govt to landlords.

Public owned housing is the answer.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#129

Post by Evbn »

wyuenho wrote: post #94
wilfra wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right and if the people of Hong Kong thought the government should be providing suitable housing for everybody who comes to Hong Kong (note that many of these people are foreigners) then they would vote in politicians who would make that happen.

Not everybody who comes to HK, but permanent residents in HK. Foreigners shouldn't get to come and grab resources. One of the reasons property prices in HK is so ridiculously high is because of many mainlander speculators coming in buying up apartments, jacking demand even higher. The reason this city needs government intervention is because the government controls the majority of land supply, and there isn't nearly…

They could set up an emigration plan to somewhere less crowded.

Re: Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above

#130

Post by frogpelt »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #125
ctdonath wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1 per meal: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com

Do these people have access to cooking facilities? Also a lot of the stuff there is being bought in bulk, and I imagine that storing stuff might be a problem. And of course, there is the omnipresent fact that many poor people do not have the time/knowledge to prepare many kinds of meal.

I would think time would be more abundant for poor people.
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